Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John:

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There is also plenty of archaelogical evidence that the old testament is true

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There is some evidence that a few of the stories in the Bible resemble reality. Again, it proves nothing. The Koran also resembles reality, probably by orders of magnitude more than the Bible. So ought we then to confess our faith in Allah?[/B][/QUOTE]then why don't you both do? Allah scored twice in this forum(the first one's in Free-for-All) right? ...sorry, can't resist the temptation to do that!

Guess I should do the explaining...Islamic theology considers that the Qur'an is the words of Allah, revealed in Arabic to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) gradually. The Prophet is an illiterate man; after he received some Qur'anic verses, he always said it aloud and have it written down by his faithful companions. Muslims consider that Allah protected the Qur'an from deviations like those plaguing earlier revelations (the only ones explicitly referred in Qur'anic texts are Torah (revealed to Moses), Psalms (to David), and the Gospels (to Jesus) but there are also claims that Allah had revealed His word to thousands of prophets for every human soul on earth); He protects the text by keeping them in the minds of the 'hafiz' (Qur'an memorizers, and yes, there are many of them!) and by the Muslims' practice of writing Qur'anic verses in Arabic as the Prophet's companions did.(IMHO I think that the 'text protection' belief is a positive feedback, because the authenticity of the Qur'anic text would be kept in constant scrutiny by both means (written and memory). And the Qur'an is rather immune to frauds. Throughout history, some false prophets tried to incorporate new verses to it, the most recent is Anis Shorrosh, but the consistency of the memorizers and written texts can always identify the false verses and throw falsehoods out.John's opinion agrees with mine that the Qur'an is not intended to be a strictly historical document. The part most relevant to this forum, the creation stories, are scattered and told as allegories and examples. Therefore Muslims (IMHO) have a more relaxed view of creation, unlike those who wants Genesis to be true. However there are other more apologetical opinions among Muslims, which said that the existence of some historical events in the Qur'an have been confirmed by evidence.

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by gene90:
I've heard that until very recently it was taboo to even translate the Qur'an to any language other than Arabic in the first place.

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I believe you are correct. I am sure Andya can verify this.

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Yes, in Indonesia, it does. Here, at least until early 20th century Muslim children which underwent religious education were obliged to understand Arabic; although this practice has been diminished, we still taught kids to at least read Arabic (sadly this is a disturbing fact... A percentage of Indonesian Muslims can read Arabic, but they just stop there. They cannot understand the meaning so that's where translators step in) in order to be able to read the Qur'an. And there indeed was a taboo in making translations, but the taboo has eroded now, due to the fact that there are more Muslims without the knowledge of Arabic meanings.

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To me, that is surprising because the Western media generally portrays Islam, especially Islam outside the US, as being much more conservative than Western Christianity.

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Yeah, western media thrives on the negatives. Islam throughout history has been a bit more dignified than Christianity. It was Islam that preserved what survived of the knowledge we had before the fall of Rome, when Christianity set about destroying everything pagan.

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Thanks. May Allah bless you both.Anyway, I still don't understand why creationism (ID version), which is a fundamentalist Christian all-American invention, can gain its way into the Muslim world by way of Harun Yahya? I get the suspicion that he's being funded by ICR or something... That guy invites Duane Gish & John Morris to Turkey to gave speeches![This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 08-10-2002]

We can continue this. First. The Qur'an do acknowldege that Jesus is a prophet of Allah, but not the Savior. Muslims do not have the concept of Redemption. Salvation is a personal issue (although some extremists as the Taliban thought that it was a political issue).Second, Ibrahim (Abraham) sacrificed Ishmael, not Isaac. The sacrifice is an important issue in Islamic theology.Third, the Flood was only vaguely referred, and Noah was carrying only livestock and the faithful people of his time (not just his family). No mention of Noah & co. doing the most ambitious specimen-collecting project of all time.Fourth, it is a common opinion among Muslims that earlier revelations have been corruted by the words of man. Possibly it was caused by lack of original texts.

First, if I have been interpreting 'Redemption' wrongly, I am sorry. Islamic theology has no concept of the Fall of Humankind and Original Sin. Therefore Muslims find nothing in the concept of Jesus as Savior. Adam & Eve's sins were forgiven when God ordered them to leave the Garden of Eden.You asked for some verses which back up my position. Muslims believe that their fate in the afterlife will be judged only by their deeds.53.31 And Allah's is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil according to what they do, and (that) He may reward those who do good with goodness.45.22 And Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth and that every soul may be rewarded for what it has earned and they shall not be wronged.45.15 Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against himself; then you shall be brought back to your Lord.41.46 Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against it; and your Lord is not in the least unjust to his servants.Page not found | www.free-minds.orgI once had a discussion about redemption with a Christian friend (she was trying to convert me ). And I still cannot understand why all sins are forgotten just because somebody sacrificed himself...(Maybe we should continue in another forum/thread?)