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Member (Idle past 1507 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Are there "scientists" who will NOT change their minds even when they are presented with "sufficient evidence"?
Dyed-in-the-wool naturalists are incapable of changing their minds except in very rare instances. This is because people very rarely base their perspectives on primarily empirical data. The net result of an incorporation of actual empiricism upon the thinking of a population (of philosophically naturalistic individuals, for example), would be that they would regard such naturalistic philosophy and its inevitable implications, with at least the same dubiety as that group (of naturalists) has historically displayed toward creationism.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Creationism or Evolutionism not the only two possibilities?
What could be posited as an answer to origins other than the two contending philosophies which assert either that an omnipotent Creator is responsible for existence, or that existence came about through purely naturalistic means?
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Who will suffer eternally?
Answer: ...at a minimum, those who have heard the biblical gospel of Jesus, understand it, and yet reject it. The Bible a compilation of recycled myths? In spite of the many proofs available (ELS data for instance), you seem unwilling to abandon the old yarn that characterizes the Bible as something less than what it is: the record of the least flawed "religion" in the world. I find that interesting, common, and unfortunate.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
What could cause me to consider the theory of evolution more seriously?
Some credible evidence that comes across as something more than a no-option-evolutionist's attempt to support a philosophy with scientific-sounding rhetoric. For example, if fossils could be found that shows fins gradually developing bones and then gradually extending to transform the creature into a land animal.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
I considered your usage of the term "sufficient" when I wrote my latter response. I too contend that it is the "'sufficient' evidence" itself which addresses the crux of the problem. "Sufficient" is a very handy theoretical term. In order for evidence to be "sufficiently" persuasive (enough to convert a naturalist), more than mere scientific proof would have to be factored into the naturalist's perspective--because the religion of naturalism is belief-driven (just as creationism is), not science-driven.
You spoke of those who are brought up to accept certain beliefs without question. Of course, what you say there applies to both naturalist and creationist beliefs. But the ones who are brought up to believe as true, the option that is indeed true, are, of course, not in error.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Evolutionism (biological) is a subset of cosmic evolutionism, which requires an origin for physical materials. Let's take a look at your first suggestion: "no creator, life emerges by naturalistic means, life develops complexity by naturalistic means." How did the physical material (that is needed for the universe and life) come into existence? I say that the only options are that it popped into existence on its own, or the omnipotent Creator did it. You don't assign credence to the idea that physical material has existed throughout an infinite past, do you?
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
If you don't believe that the physical material required for "evolutionary" or "creationistic" scenarios existed from the infinite past, then it either popped into existence without cause or the omnipotent Creator caused it, right?
In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (martinkoszegi@yahoo.com) --Marty
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Hmmm. So the choice is either:
it came into existence by a process we do not understand,or it came into exist by a process we do not understand directed by a being who is beyond our comprehension. Seems like you want to add something incomprehensible to something incomprehensible and call it an answer. Your welcome to that, if it makes you feel better. Believing that the God of the Bible is omnipotent "makes me feel better" (for one thing) in the sense that all available empirical data harmonizes so well with the portions of scripture that lend themselves to scientific and historical scrutiny. Does beginning your assessment of reality in an after-the-fact mode (i.e., embracing "naturalism" only from the point in time following the coming-into-being of physical matter) make you feel better? Must we not concede, at least for the time being, that consideration must be given in our equation for what is now incomprehensible? And if you do concede, "yes," does it make sense to base research assumptions on a systematic denial of the "possibility" (of the attributes of the incomprehensible factor)? If your answer was "no," though, then I think that that would supply one of the main reasons why otherwise intelligent people would be so susceptible to falling headlong into the support structure of a theory (naturalism) that the facts have failed. Oh yes, and why would the creator be omnipotent? Can't see the logic in that. Well, you got me there. Such a Creator who called worlds into existence, who called physical laws into existence, who called life into existence, i.e., the Biblical God, indeed cannot do anything and everything . . . He cannot lie, be improved upon, or do anything else that is inconsistent with his nature. In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (martinkoszegi@yahoo.com) --Marty
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
How about this one: All of the universe hatched from an egg! Or that all of the matter came from the future and time is a mobius strip! Or that there is a balance between matter and energy and there was to much energy, so it became matter!
The point is that we don't know nearly enough about physics to provide evidence for any scenario. Any of those theories have just as much scientific proof as that god exists or existed and created the universe._________________________________ Yes, I see your point. But the only reason why I favor the "view" Ido, as opposed to entertaining any of the theoretically limitless amusing alternatives, is because of the "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" (Josh McDowell's title for his apologetical study, which I use here in an analogous sense to include the vastness of reasons why the most intelligent and fair-minded people must accept the Bible as what it claims to be, the inspired word of God). Given the phenomenon of the Bible (that can be "refuted" only by those who are, ultimately, bent on living in denial), I am on good grounds to favor the idea that God is the cause of our universe and existence. In remembrance that Jesus alone must be reckoned with . . . (martinkoszegi@yahoo.com) --Marty
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Oh my, a bit arrogant and self-righteous aren't we?
Considering that most people on the planet are not Christian, you must think that the world is pretty much overrun by a whole lot of stupid, unfair people. _________________________________ I can understand why people would, at least initially, come to that conclusion, but here's why your at least partially wrong in what you intimate. (Yet this will be a limited rebuttal here, not taking into direct consideration the "strict predestinarian" Calvinism and "free will" Armeanianism issue.) Believe it to be fairy tale material or not, the fallen archangel, Lucifer (now Satan), has blinded the minds of people. Jesus said that narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few find it, but broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many go that way. It's "many," versus "few." It goes against the grain of the fallen nature of mankind to simply accept the truth: That there is one God, and that he offered one plan for mankind to be redeemed. Those who broke away from the truth in ancient (or modern) times, and began other belief systems, were (are) in rebellion to God, and if they persist in their rebellion, or, tragically, inherit a tradition or culture of rebellion and ascribe to them, are lost. From the earthly, human, perspective, this seems unfair. But given the fallen nature that all are born with (due to our inheritance of it from Adam), and due to our own practice of sin, all of us fall into the category of deserving judgement. The amazing thing isn't that many will suffer eternal judgement; the amazing thing is, given the human condition, that anyone from that group could escape that fate, a fate that is deserved by everyone. If our debate on this issue (in reference now, specifically, to my usage of the terms "intelligent" and "fair-minded")were to continue, though, I'd wind up conceding that many of those who have the "highest IQ's" reject God's only way. There are also people who have "low IQ's" who accept God's only way. (Perhaps you'll resist the temptation to offer a humorous come-back about the latter point.) The reason why most people on the planet are non-Christian is because being non-Christian is the most natural way to be for a fallen race. Born again Christians deserve judgment, but they shall not suffer judgment because they've received the Messiah who already paid the price for people's sins. Those who elect to pay for their own sins will do so. I'm not saved because I'm righteous of my own merit. I'm saved (righteous) because I have received the plan of salvation that is offered by the only righteous being in existence. Arrogant? Perhaps. Sometimes (in a sense) there's a place for it. But arrogance is not reserved as a response for everyone. Elijah was arrogant when he confronted blatant paganism. Jesus was arrogant against religious leaders who falsely claimed to be serving God. As a first choice, I'd like to influence people into realizing our need to repent and receive Jesus. TRUTH is sometimes falsely perceived of as being arrogant, even when it is shared gently, simply because of how dramatically it counters falsehoods. In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (martinkoszegi@yahoo.com) --Marty
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
. . . then I think that that would supply one of the main reasons why otherwise intelligent people would be so susceptible to falling headlong into the support structure of a theory (naturalism) that the facts have failed.
You consider "naturalism" a theory?! _____________________________ Of course naturalism is a theory. "Naturalism" is not simply a study of physical systems because physical systems are what we must study in order to objectively learn about our universe. "Naturalists," especially the ones who actually have influence, are crusaders for cosmic and biological evolution which are totally materialistic notions (assumptions: beliefs: religions).
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
Or its just always been there...
________________________ That's what I meant by believing that it existed throughout the infinite past. Or it popped into existence with cause and that cause wasn't a Creator...____________________________ Yes, of course: as per Stephen Hawking mythos--excellant sf/fantasy writer! Or it was a creator who isn't omnipotent...____________________________ Upon further reflection, I think your right about this option. The one and only true God--the God of the Bible, isn't omnipotent. He can't lie, be improved upon, or do anything else that is inconsistent with his nature.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
I've asked in another thread for independent historical corroboration
of the Bible. There has been very little to date. Some suggestions and time-frames, but overwhelmingly the historical content of the bible appears to be contradicted by archeolofical evidence rather than the other way around. _________________________________________ Your ideas about archaeological data being a contradiction to the Biblical record is simply erroneous. You might be interested in reading the relevant chapter titles in scores of apologetical studies on the subject. (I usually recommend Josh McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict.)______________________________ --independent historical corroboration of the Bible --Scientific correlation --if God were omnipotent, then anything is compatible with His existence and creation of the universe ... including evolution --Getting hung up on the inerrency of the Bible (or ANY document) is a dangerous, and short, slide into the sort of fanaticism shown by certain Islamic groups _________________________________ All of the above concerns can be debated to the point of exhaustion, and I don't mind engaging in the process from the traditional standpoint. I'll respond this time, though, a bit differently. The fact that the truth of the Gospel is primarily a spiritual truth that includes but transcends the intellect, is suggestive of the further truth that divine revelation makes no pretense as being something that is unassailable from the almost infinitely varied rationale's of fallen human creatures, many of whom have already made up their minds and are not going to change.If fallen human creatures want to point out a number of the reasons why, only from the context of this temporal plane, the credibility of the Christian claim is no more corroborable than the claims of limitless cults, they are simply articulating what serves to prevent some people from being saved. The notion that Biblical revelation is obligated to be something beyond what it is--God's revelation of the single plan of salvation through Christ, like it or not, receive it or not--is futile. It was understood at the onset that the Bible's message would be rejected by most people. The . . . yes, (now) unprovable fact of the matter is that the only belief that is inspired and "backed" by the only Creator is Biblical Christianity. Obviously, God knew the rationale's that would be used to form the arguments against this truth. Yet he provided the Biblical truth as it is now available in order to accomplish his plan. Much of what appears to be acceptable argumentation against this truth (on the fallen, human, rational level) are absolutely inferior at the spiritual level. That is part of the reason why God demands that those who come to him, must come to him by faith. Of course, it is impossible for anyone to not exercise faith. Some people have faith only in what they can see when indeed they see far less than everything (and so have an incredibly inaccurate perspective); that is why they are unable to prove that that pragmatism is the best philosophy. But there is really a great empirical basis for the Christian faith. God does require that we receive him by faith, but he has made it easy on us. Athiests' and agnostics' faith is much more "blind" in comparison to Christian faith--they have more working against them than they have for them. But that sort of materialistic rangling is inferior to the bottom line: repent and receive Jesus, or don't and remain on the broad path that leads to destruction, a path that hosts all manner of rationale's authored by people who can't and won't give up their "unBiblically-shaded glasses."
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
". . He cannot lie, be improved upon, or do anything else that is inconsistent with his nature."
--I think that he 'chooses' not to lie or do anything else inconsistent with his nature would be more accurate. ___________________________ No. The scripture forthrightly declares that God cannot lie. Also, technically he can 'improve upon' himself. But its futile as the improvement will only be infinity + x. Do you see the problem in infinity + x?__________________________ I do see the problem with infinity + x. I think it is consistent with the fact of God's perfection, his inability to be improved upon.
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Martin J. Koszegi Inactive Member |
We have fish, fish with limbs but not toes, fish-like amphibians - all in all, pretty good. the transition mentioned before, of land mammals to whales, is even more impressive.
the link above is just a starting point. If you still aren't convinced, of course, we can talk in more detail. However, please just don't dismiss this evidence. You said this would convince you, I've provided it, now we can talk about it._____________________________________ Well, I took a look at the link, and I'm still not moved. It is strictly theoretically possible for God to have used evolution in order to create, because he can do anything that isn't inconsistent with his nature. Hyperbolically, he could have used smoke, mirrors, cardboard and duct tape if he wanted to--it's just that there's no evidence that he used those types of things to create the universe and make it wind up as things exist today. The exact same situation holds true for the notion of evolution--the problem isn't with the fossil record: it stands as a witness to sudden creation as Genesis describes. The link's rhetoric, composed of its many concessions (that there are still gaps between the groups, the speciation events are not preserved, cousins and uncles exist rather than parents, "we" assume they are closely related to the actual parents, transitions from the proposed ancestors are fully plausible, etc.), comes across as nothing more than typical naturalistic assumptivism. If one is fully devoted at the onset (before the investigation of the evidence) to the religion of naturalism, they will see the indicated "evidences" according to the perspective that they outlined. I saw nothing that proves or even leads me to believe the claims of naturalists: that creatures have changed macro-evolutionally. Show me SOMETHING LIKE: --transitional forms showing the nostrils of a Brachiosaurus (in the bony dome on top of his head) migrating from a "normal" dinosaur's snout up into the bony dome on top of the head --a "normal" beetle transforming into a Bobardier Beetle (that has twin combustion tubes in its tail, one storing hydroquinone, the other hydrogen peroxide from oxidizing the hydroquinone--which combine with catalase and peroxidase when they enter the combustion tubes, causing the rapid conversion of hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen, and thus producing quinone, which is a noxious chemical that is heated up to 212 degrees Fahrenheit, generating a lot of pressure, all of which, work together to shoot the Bombardier Beetle's prey via its swiveling tail gun) / I'm with creationist Dr. Gish, and say that nothing as complicated as this process could ever come about by a series of accidents, especially since nothing works until everything works . . . But from the evolutionary perspective, some "normal" beetle had to develop storage chambers for two chemicals so that they could be completely away from the two enzymes, but why would he invent storage chambers before he had the chemicals? But on the other hand, what would he do with the two chemicals until he had some place to store them? And, of course the two chemicals and the storage chambers would be of no use at all until the inhibitor, which is also part of this mechanism, was developed to prevent the chemicals from reacting with each other. On the other hand, how would the inhibitor be invented until he had the two chemicals that needed to be inhibited? However, if we suppose that he did manage, by some mysterious process, to invent the two chemicals, the inhibitor, and the storage chambers, what is he going to do with this mixture of chemicals? The enzymes have not been developed yet, so the chemicals won't explode and generate heat and irritating gasses. The chemicals will just sit and corrode his innards without the enzymes, but why would he develop enzymes before he had the chemicals? On the other hand, why would he develop the chemicals, the inhibitor, and the storage chambers until he had the enzymes? --a "normal" bird transforming into a woodpecker (equipped with "shock absorbers" around its brain, its incredibly long tongue used for inserting into his "jack-hammer-produced" tree holes so that he can lick up the ants inside, the migration of its tongue anchoring from the back of its beak into the right nostril-- including its split into two halves, after it emerges from the right nostril, each half passing over each side of the skull underneath its skin and coming around and up underneath the beak, there entering the beak and then re-combining) --etc. Even if you can't provide fossil proof of macro-evolutionary transitional forms that are intimated above, it might be interesting to read your analytical assessment of how these examples came into existence through evolution, one small step at a time. In remembrance that only Jesus must be reckoned with . . . (martinkoszegi@yahoo.com) --Marty
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