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Author Topic:   Why can creationists give straight answers?
John
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 56 (15230)
08-11-2002 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mark24
08-11-2002 2:18 PM


'scusa me. I have a question.
quote:
Whilst I'm at it, it has just occurred to me that it's 1667 ben. mut. to go from a common ancestor of humans & chimps, to humans & chimps. This assumes that chimps ARE the common ancestor of man, & have had no beneficial mutations fixed themselves. This means you should roughly double the figure, since the chimps are getting 1667 be. muts. as well, not just humans. So wouldn't there have been 3334 fixed beneficial alleles in the two species from divergence (according to Haldane in '57), or has this been taken into account?
The 1667 mutations? This number represents the mutations seperating humans and chimps? Basically, how is this figure calculated?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by mark24, posted 08-11-2002 2:18 PM mark24 has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 56 (15285)
08-12-2002 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Peter
08-12-2002 9:29 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Couldn't you get from a common ancestor to chimps & man
with 1667/2 (if 1667 is an ok number ... dunno where it
came from but hey ...)?

That's where I was going when I asked what the number 1667 actually represents. If that number represents the difference between humans and chimps, then I am thinking, like you, that we should divide it by 2 to get a rough approximation of change along one lineage.
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John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 56 (15401)
08-13-2002 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Fred Williams
08-13-2002 6:17 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
The assumption is 10mya to arrive at 1667. If we assume 5 mya the number is 833.
But the assumption is an assumption. As I understand the 1667 figure is based upon a calculation made by Haldane(?) If his assumptions are proven wrong the whole thing collapses.
What you are doing is taking like taking a estimated measure of distance-- say one hundred feet. Then walking that distance and realizing that the distance is actually 125 feet. Then, turning around and arguing that the distance isn't 125 feet because the estimate said it can't be.
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John
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 56 (15806)
08-20-2002 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Fred Williams
08-20-2002 5:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
Bacteria
Some time after I wrote these web pages, a Bible skeptic unwittingly showed me yet another example of advanced scientific/medical knowledge in the Bible. He posted a message on a discussion board that ridiculed some verses in Leviticus 13 and 14 that mention leprosy on walls and on garments. He felt this was silly and an error since leprosy is a human disease. What this skeptic was unaware of is the fact that leprosy is a bacteria, a living organism, that certainly can live on walls and garments! How often and how sweet it is when we see skeptic's attempts to denigrate God and the Bible turned around such that they end up glorifying God!
No problem. The person to whom you were reponding was wrong. But the real issue is whether or not the Isrealites had advanced knowledge of microbes. This is not supported by the fact that they burned houses and clothing. Such action is a pretty normal reaction to combatting disease where the source is not known. The same reactions are observed during the various plagues of the middle ages.
quote:
Scott, the onus is on you to show this was not advanced knowledge of that time.
Scott, if I may....
quote:
The bacteria can survive three weeks or longer outside the human body, such as in dust or on clothing.
No problem so far.
quote:
It was not until 1873 that leprosy could be shown to be infectious rather than hereditary.
Here is a problem. The Egyptians, Indians and Chinese all knew that leprosy was an infectious disease.
quote:
Now don’t you think it was a good thing that God commanded the Levitical priests to isolate lepers, and burn their garments?
Sure, its a good thing that the Levitical priests included this injucntion, but it is hardly the result of advanced medical knowledge. It isn't a big leap of logic. Sick person. Another person comes in contact with sick person and thereafter gets sick as well. Solution: Don't come in contact with sick people, or people who have particular symptoms. And burn their stuff just to be safe.
quote:
What other culture prior to the 1800s, let alone 4000 years ago, practiced safe leprosy?
hmmm.... every culture where the disease is prevalent.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.slic2.wsu.edu:82/hurlbert/micro101/pages/Chap1.html
quote:
Feel free to chalk this up to yet another coincidence or blind luck.
Thanks for the offer, but there is no need for luck or coincidence. Common sense works just fine.
quote:
You guys ought to be exhausted constantly having to explain away the myriad of supernatural evidences within the Bible.
... constantly having to explain over and over and over and over
By the way, the word 'leprosy' used in the Bible covered a many different diseases, not just the one known as leprosy today.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Fred Williams, posted 08-20-2002 5:54 PM Fred Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by gene90, posted 08-20-2002 11:36 PM John has replied
 Message 33 by Fred Williams, posted 08-21-2002 7:15 PM John has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 56 (15823)
08-21-2002 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by gene90
08-20-2002 11:36 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Here is a problem. The Egyptians, Indians and Chinese all knew that leprosy was an infectious disease.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
I'm a little confused. Do you mean the condition caused by Mycobacterium leprae or just some skin disease? I thought we weren't sure that "leprosy" in the Bible is what we call "leprosy" today?

That is a very good question. What information I found on leprosy in the ancient world was not terribly clear on this, but I kinda doubt that anyone had it narrowed down to one species of bacteria. The 'collection of skin disease' definition seems likely.
Here is a pretty good history of the disease.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.webspawner.com/users/LEPHISTORY/
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John
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 56 (20924)
10-27-2002 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by derwood
09-16-2002 1:57 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SLPx:
[B]4) John, then later Randy if I recall, point out that the word leprosy in the Bible may cover a variety of diseases. This may be so, it may not. Regardless, it does not impact my original argument.[/quote]
No, but you still have yet to support your orignal argument with anything relevant.[quote] I think it does weaken the argument. Fred is claiming that the Isrealites had special knowledge of microbial life. If the word refers to various unidentified skin diseases it can hardly be said to represent any special knowledge. It is the difference between saying "You have the flu" and being able to name the strain of virus.
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This message is a reply to:
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