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Author Topic:   "Modern Cell Biology doesn't support Darwinism"
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 28 of 87 (285725)
02-10-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by randman
02-10-2006 6:36 PM


Re: sounds like Faith
No one was saying that 'DNA homestasis' or 'genetic homeostasis' didn't exist. What was repeatedly pointed out to Faith was that there are a number of conditions under which such homeostatic mechanisms can be overtaken by other factors.
This Maresca and Schwartz paper just suggests a further mechanism which may lead to 'dna homeostasis' being overcome. Although in fact the cellular mechanisms they discuss are not the usual mechanisms associated with 'genetic homeostasis' which are more connected with population genetics and selective fators.
These models seem reminiscent of the stress induced mechanisms studied in bacteria where the stress simply ups the general level of mutation throughout the population and combines it with the added selective pressure associated with the stress.
TTFN,
WK

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 30 of 87 (285739)
02-10-2006 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by nwr
02-10-2006 7:16 PM


Re: A reassessment
I think you have it a bit mixed up. The stress causes the generation of substantial levels of variation. A large proportion of this variation will be directly lethal or lead to other forms of non-viability. Many surviving variations will be recessive and lie unexpressed in the population until they reach a high enough frequency to become expressed iby the generation of heterozygotes. Again many of these heterozygotes may die but some proportion might survive.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 29 by nwr, posted 02-10-2006 7:16 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 84 of 87 (289476)
02-22-2006 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by nwr
02-20-2006 1:57 PM


Re: Back to the topic ?
You aren't at a disadvantage, it isn't as if Randman has read the paper after all.
If he had he might have noticed that his quote
Modern cell biology does not support Darwinism
isn't actually in the paper at all.
One of the authors may have said it, but they didn't say it in the paper.
You can make an argument that the statement is a natural corrollary of what is said in the paper, but that is not what Randman chose to do.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 83 by nwr, posted 02-20-2006 1:57 PM nwr has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 85 of 87 (289482)
02-22-2006 8:25 AM


I hope this isn't too substantial a lift from the paper.
Maresca and Schwartz, 2006 writes:
If an organism’s features are not adaptations to specific environmental circumstances, we can decouple “evolution” and “adaptation.” The apparent “order” with which organisms seem to be distributed in nature results from the elimination of the “wrong” phenotypes, not necessarily the selection of better adapted ones. Phenotypes do not change to “fit” their environment as a result of “correct” sequences of mutation. Rather, the environment provokes organismal (plant and animal) change via stress. Since the cause of cell function disruption is random, the resultant mutation’s effects on the regulation of development and its ultimate phenotypic expression are also random. In short, if a newly emergent phenotypic property does not kill you, you have it [...]
We can see a number of straw man representations of evolutionary theory here.
The apparent “order” with which organisms seem to be distributed in nature results from the elimination of the “wrong” phenotypes, not necessarily the selection of better adapted ones
What the distinction is between eliminating 'wrong' phenotypes and selecting 'right' phenotypes is is beyond me, it seems purely semantic. This is especially a problem since what is the 'wrong' phenotype is determined by a number of environmental factors one of which is the rest of your population, so there is nothing to stop the criteria for a 'wrong' phenotype shifting as one might expect in some form of directional selection.
Phenotypes do not change to “fit” their environment as a result of “correct” sequences of mutation
This isn't a claim which is made, there is no hypothetical "correct" sequence, there is just what works and what doesn't and some things work better than other in certain conditions.
Rather, the environment provokes organismal (plant and animal) change via stress. Since the cause of cell function disruption is random, the resultant mutation’s effects on the regulation of development and its ultimate phenotypic expression are also random.
This could apply to almost any scale of mutation. The only 'unique' thing about this theory seems to be the blending of the stress induced mutation models common in bacterial studies with some sort of large scale make or break level of catastrophic mutation, such as you might see with large scale chromosomal rearrangements or wholesale duplications.
TTFN,
WK

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