Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Chen's work pose a problem for ToE?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 84 (290170)
02-24-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
02-24-2006 2:50 PM


Re: what are you saying?
quote:
...considering all major phyla appeared at that time.
Actually, the genetic evidence seems to point to most major phyla having separated from one another about 500 million years before the Cambian.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 84 (290178)
02-24-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
02-24-2006 5:35 PM


Link.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:35 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:48 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 84 (290186)
02-24-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by randman
02-24-2006 5:50 PM


What are YOU saying?
quote:
You not only had many extinct dinosaurs, but even semi-aquatic mammals.
This is false. The semi-aquatic mammal to which I think you are referring lived during the Jurassic. The first dinosaurs didn't appear until the Triassic (or maybe the Permian -- I forget, but definitely well after the Cambrian).

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 6:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 84 (290199)
02-24-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
02-24-2006 6:03 PM


quote:
My mistake...you are correct...but regardless, we really see the sudden emergence of all major phyla.
This is false. What we really see is the first fossil evidence of some of the major phyla.
There is fossil evidence of precursors of some phyla among the Ediacaran fauna.
At any rate, the Cambrian "explosion" may not have been all that "sudden", and only marks the appearance of hard body parts that fossilize (more) easily compared to the soft-bodied precursors.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 6:03 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by randman, posted 02-25-2006 2:27 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 84 (290331)
02-25-2006 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by randman
02-25-2006 12:30 PM


Re: 50 million years
quote:
Can one of you guys address what Chen and his colleague are saying?
We have addressed it. His comment
no evolutionary theory can explain this
is wrong.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by randman, posted 02-25-2006 12:30 PM randman has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 84 (290466)
02-25-2006 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by randman
02-25-2006 2:27 PM


Re: wrong, soft bodies preserved too
quote:
Somehow I think the message in the OP and the links are not getting through.
Somehow I think you are getting fustrated that the implications that can be drawn from the scientific research are not the implications you would like to draw.
-
quote:
Chen's work shows that soft-bodied creatures are extremely well-preserved in the fossil record, thus refuting the common evo explanation you offered.
What evo explanation did I offer that was refuted by Chen? From your quote:
What they had actually proved was that phosphate is fully capable of preserving whatever animals may have lived there in Precambrian times.
Is this what you are referring to? This isn't new -- hell, Stephen Jay Gould wrote an essay over ten years ago discussing this method of preservation and explaining the insights that these fossil discoveries have offered concerning the pre-Cambrian history of metazooan evolution.
-
...Chen instead found a chordate that already displayed many vertebrate characteristics 15 million years earlier.
So? The origin of vertebrates is at least 15 million years earlier than originally thought. That is an interesting discovery, to be sure, but not anything that is going to overturn the theory of evolution.
-
Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: "No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena."
Which is incorrect. Natural selection on randomly occurring variations is adequate. I don't see anything in these people's research, at least nothing that you have posted, that denies that these species were produced by natural selection acting on random variations.
At most, the papers are discussing timing issues which, as interesting as they are, are nothing that contradicts the theory of evolution.
-
quote:
What I would like to see is some evo here take the time to grasp Chen's and his associates' claims....
It doesn't take much time to grasp their claims. Chen has (or had) some hair-brained alternate idea of evolution that he favored, and decided to read into the data a problem that doesn't exist in order to promote his own idiosyncratic theory.
--
quote:
To date, it doesn't appear anyone even "gets" what the Asian scientists are saying.
Until someone presents some sort of citation for these scientists' alternate theory of evolution, including a mechanism that would make their ideas work, and a discussion of actual (as opposed to imaginary) problems that this theory explains better than the standard theory of evolution, then these scientists aren't saying much.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by randman, posted 02-25-2006 2:27 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 02-25-2006 7:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 84 (290573)
02-26-2006 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by randman
02-25-2006 7:33 PM


Re: wrong, soft bodies preserved too
quote:
I showed where soft-bodied creatures are found in abundance in phosphates.
What don't you get about that?
You did? Could you repeat your cite? This process is fairly rare, and only works with very, very small organisms. I doubt that they are found in "abundance".
And even if they are, the discoveries of these fossils do not contradict the theory of evolution and, in fact, lead to new insights concerning the evolution of the major phyla.
What I definitely "get" is that you do not understand any of this, and that you appear to purposely refuse to understand it.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by randman, posted 02-25-2006 7:33 PM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NosyNed, posted 02-26-2006 11:38 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 84 (290905)
02-27-2006 2:28 PM


maybe off-topic
This doesn't have anything to do with the Chen et al. business, but as I was browsing the Palaeos site, I came across an essay on bilateran phylogeny that some may find interesting.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024