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Author Topic:   Does Chen's work pose a problem for ToE?
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 84 (290122)
02-24-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
02-24-2006 2:07 PM


Is this validation of longstanding Creationist/ID criticism in this arena
Well, no, it's not. The criticism of ID is that it never happens; this research seems to indicate one instance where it didn't happen.
I don't see how the second validates the first. Maybe you can explain it to me?

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 Message 1 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:07 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:18 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 21 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:36 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 42 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-24-2006 6:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 84 (290129)
02-24-2006 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
02-24-2006 2:18 PM


Re: what are you saying?
What are you talking about here?
The criticism of creationism is that natural selection and random mutation can't explain the diversity of life on Earth.
The contention of this paper is natural selection and random mutation explain all of the diversity of life on Earth except for this one instance, apparently.
I don't see how the second supports the first. Saying it fails once in a million examples, or once in a billion, doesn't support the contention that it fails in every case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:18 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 84 (290160)
02-24-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
02-24-2006 2:50 PM


Re: what are you saying?
Not really, and if want to call the Cambrian explosion, one instance, well, I have to laugh at that comment considering all major phyla appeared at that time.
Why is that such a big deal? There's only 35, and their distinguishing characteristics don't seem to represent an enormous degree of evolutionary change. I mean, the things that seperate one phylum from another are things like whether or not you have a shell, or whether or not you have a "hollow nervous dorsal cord", or nematocysts, or a chitinous exoskeleton.
And you think those morphological developments couldn't take place in a few million years? Creationists routinely posit far greater morphological change in far shorter periods of time (i.e. all bears and raccoons from one pair of bear-raccoon individuals.)

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 Message 10 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 2:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 84 (290171)
02-24-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
02-24-2006 5:27 PM


Re: random mutation and natural selection
But do not random mutation and natural selection consist of the bulk of evidentiary claims for ToE, and moreover, haven't evos (perhaps even yourself) argued that ToE can be falsified by whether natural selection and random mutation can account for macroevolution, or are all those claims that microevolution is macroevolution and really all the evidence you need just so much hot air?
See my Message #3.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 84 (290172)
02-24-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
02-24-2006 5:29 PM


Re: what are you saying?
The Cambrian explosion entailed as much variety of life as we see today.
Substantiation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:29 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:40 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 84 (290176)
02-24-2006 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by randman
02-24-2006 5:36 PM


Re: it's not clear crash
What is this, a David Ives play? See message 6.

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 Message 21 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:36 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:42 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 52 by Buzsaw, posted 02-24-2006 7:55 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 84 (290182)
02-24-2006 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by randman
02-24-2006 5:40 PM


Re: what are you saying?
Fascinating, but that's not what I asked for. Did you forget what you were supposed to be supporting?
quote:
The Cambrian explosion entailed as much variety of life as we see today.
Or am I just wasting my time asking you to support your assertions?

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 Message 23 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:40 PM randman has replied

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 Message 29 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:50 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 84 (290190)
02-24-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by randman
02-24-2006 5:42 PM


Re: it's not clear crash
Crash, all major life forms and more creatures than exist today appeared in the Cambrian explosion.
Well, that's false. There are no mammals or reptiles in Cambrian fossils. There are no insects or flowering plants. I hardly think that these organisms would not be labeled "major life forms."
There are representative fossils of all the major phyla, but if you were to compare these different organisms, you would not find them very different. It is only much later that the true diversity of life on Earth develops; the fossil record is one of increasing diversity over time, not vast diversity during the Cambrian era that has declined ever since.

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 Message 25 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:42 PM randman has replied

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 Message 36 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 6:06 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 37 of 84 (290193)
02-24-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by randman
02-24-2006 5:50 PM


Re: what are you saying?
You not only had many extinct dinosaurs
Dinosaurs do not appear until the Triassic period, so you're quite wrong.
None of the life-forms that you would probably recognize as "major" are present in Cambrian fossils. No reptiles, no mammals, no insects, no flowering plants, just basically worms of various body plans, and trilobites. And a few things that we're not even sure are organisms.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 84 (290194)
02-24-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by randman
02-24-2006 6:06 PM


Re: it's not clear crash
Can you substantiate that? For example, the quote I linked to says there has not been any major phyla in over 500 million years.
Diversity is a measure of the number of different species, not of phyla. For instance, in the Burgess Shale, one of the best records of soft-bodied organisms from the Cambrian, only 120 species are observed. The number of species currently described on Earth at this time is 1.75 million or so.
We would not expect new phyla to develop regardless of how diversity has increased.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 84 (290291)
02-25-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
02-24-2006 7:55 PM


Re: it's not clear crash
How does your message six answer Rand's question as to what you mean?
Can you be more specific about what you don't understand? I thought my message was pretty clear.
I was wondering what you meant also, since most IDists beleive all life was created within a short timespan and not to be a continuous process.
That's my point exactly. Creationism refuses to believe that evolutionary processes can explain more than a fraction of the diversity of life on Earth.
One example of one diversity event for which evolutionary processes may not suffice to explain doesn't substantiate that position. We've still got the vast majority of life on Earth being explained by evolutionary processes, which proves creationism wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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