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Author Topic:   What if? (religious reaction to extraterrestrial life)
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 3635 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 31 of 65 (110312)
05-25-2004 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object
05-21-2004 3:59 PM


Free will
Willow :
According to Genesis only two people were involved in disobeying God; Adam and Eve. You and I and billions of other to come had nothing to do with their actions and yet according to the Bible we are held equally responsible. Why are you and I being held accountable for the action that took place before we were born? Doesn't make sense does it.
If Adam and Eve messed up the only way we could be held responsible would be that the flaw was passed down genetically. Now the question is why didn't God sterilize one or the other rather than let the flaw infect millions upon millions. Once again, it doesn't make sense.
Do you see any evidence that God punished the serpent? Making the sepent crawl on its belly, like it did anyway, is hardly a punishment. Doesn't make sense does it?
If God really gave a damned about human kind then why did God allow the serpent into the Garden of Eden. No human would do anything that stupid so why should God. Doesn't make any sense does it; unless you regards God as being none too bright.
Do you see any thing in the story where God warned Adam and Eve about the serpent and that the serpent wasn't to be trusted? Remember, Adam and Eve wouldn't know good from evil until after they ate of the fruit. If God were really interested in their welfare he would never have allowed the serpent in the garden or would at least warned Adam and Eve. Doesn't mke sense does it?
Want to be a real Christian? Toss the Old Testament into the trash can and concentrate on what Jesus says and not what the Old Testament says. Doing so you will eliminate all of the embarassing nonsense the Old Testament brings to your religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 3:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 3:48 AM Charles Munroe has replied
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-25-2004 9:38 PM Charles Munroe has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 65 (110323)
05-25-2004 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Charles Munroe
05-25-2004 2:59 AM


Re: Free will
God gave us freewill. Freewill we accountability. He is the creator we are the creature. Is Genesis 2:17 not warning enough?. God clearly warned man but man still disobeyed. Well what happens now why are we blamed? Well sin is now in our world. We now have choices to do that which is evil or that which is good. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12. The only way to receive love by God is to trust in the only human who has ever been perfect which is his son Jesus Christ. So God asks man to consider the brevity of life (were not here for long we should consider it) and the eternal judgement on sin. God has indeed given us the ultimate test. Both judgements good or bad will be eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-25-2004 2:59 AM Charles Munroe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-25-2004 2:06 PM almeyda has not replied

  
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 3635 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 33 of 65 (110431)
05-25-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by almeyda
05-25-2004 3:48 AM


Re: Free will
Almeyda :
You are quoting verse but without understanding what you are saying. One man heard a message, disobeyed it and was punished. WHAT HAS THAT TO DO WITH YOU AND I. WE WEREN'T INVOLVED BECAUSE WE WEREN'T BORN YET.
Example : Sheriff comes knocking on your door to arrest you for cattle stealing committed by an ancestor back in the early 1800's long before your birth. What would you think of the sheriff?
A) He was perfectly justified.
B) He was completely insane.
If god created all that there is then he also created the Devil. If so then he was grossly negligent in allowing the Devil to enter the Garden of Eden where his completely innocent naive creations were living peacefully. If he had ejected the Devil sin would never have occurred.
Example : Mom goes off and leaves her young children in the care of a person with a known long criminal record. Also present in the house openly displayed are guns, explosives and poison. Now tell me if she come s home and finds the kids murdered is she a good mom? Or will she be looking at a long streach in prison?
I will repeat :
A) Toss the Old Testament in the trash.
B) Listen to what Jesus says and stop giving equal credit to what
NONSENSE humans in the Old Testament spout.
C) Before quoting verse stop,think and question. Your faith should
demands something that makes sense and not sound like it come out
of a comic book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by almeyda, posted 05-25-2004 3:48 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 34 of 65 (110515)
05-25-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Charles Munroe
05-25-2004 2:59 AM


Re: Free will
For the record: The post you should of responded to was mine, number 26.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
According to Genesis only two people were involved in disobeying God; Adam and Eve. You and I and billions of other to come had nothing to do with their actions and yet according to the Bible we are held equally responsible.
______________________________________________________________________
This is absolutely true.
The Bible DOES NOT debate the fairness of this - it simply declares what was done.
In isolation, this Biblical truth doesn't make sense. Yet, the entire record explains the reason why.
Lucifer/Satan and his angelic followers rebelled against God. The N.T. says they vacated their "first estate". Lucifer, having beheld God face to face and enjoyed the ineffable effects of God's presence STILL wanted the one thing he could not have: part of the Godhead.
The point is Lucifer discounted the greatest, and because of this, God decided that he and his followers would not be forgiven.
When God judged them and cast them out of heaven this left a void - a void that God intends to replace with those from Adamkind WHO will pass a course of predetermined trials. These trials are intended to see if certain Adamkind will trust God or not. If they trust God then He promises that they will fill the void left by Lucifer/Satan AND they will not face the same trial of Lucifer which had him yawning in the presence of God.
Lucifer/Satan is granted temporary parole from Hell to vie for the souls of Adamkind. Lucifer/Satan wants to destroy every person because they are the prospects to fill the void left by him. Lucifer/Satan is implacably angry because God gave His Son to pay for the sins of Adamkind but declined to include his sins for the reasons already stated.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Why are you and I being held accountable for the action that took place before we were born? Doesn't make sense does it.
______________________________________________________________________
I agree it doesn't make sense but it is nontheless true. God wants to repopulate heaven with persons who have an overwhelming sense of undeserved salvation. This knowledge, a knowledge that knows they do not deserve salvation or God EXEMPTS them from the same thing happening to them that happened to Lucifer - which was a total lack of gratitude towards being allowed in God's presence.
We are born separated from God in a state of "original sin". God developes our condition to make us understand that we need Him and His forgiveness. This is why the most common testimony from every person to encounter the forgiveness of God is to exclaim "Amazing grace....that He saved a wretch like me !"
Reject God's decision to place every human being in Adam's sin ?
Nothing can stop you from this reaction. It is also an indication that you are failing your trial. You are saying, in effect, I am not a sinner in need of God's help. Jesus, in the N. T. is called the Second Adam. Come into relationship with Him and ALL the Adamic curses are null and void.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
If God really gave a damned about human kind then why did God allow the serpent into the Garden of Eden.
______________________________________________________________________
Already explained above.
The serpent/Satan is allowed to test us. Satan's interest is to get us to fail and secure our presence in his fiery kingdom, AND best of all, Satan gets satisfaction on God because Satan knows God loves us and when Satan wins he hurts God for His decision to not forgive him.
You see Satan cannot get revenge on God for not forgiving him EXCEPT through Adamkind. God recognizes this, that Satan thinks it is unfair for God not to forgive him. God allows Satan to tempt us with the stakes being our souls. In Satan's case: revenge against God. In God's case: Trophies that testify to love of God via trust (something Lucifer chose not to give God).
Why does Satan cooperate ?
Because the alternative is to go to hell before he has to.
The Tree of Knowledge Good/Evil represents the Bosshood of God. Adam/Eve wanted the one thing they couldn't have (just like Lucifer/Godhead). They CHOSE to eat/disobey God.
God wants free will beings who have the freedom to do otherwise to choose to trust Him. We face the decision to eat from the Tree every day. Trust God or don't trust God - this is the reason for being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-25-2004 2:59 AM Charles Munroe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-26-2004 5:18 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 3635 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 35 of 65 (110594)
05-26-2004 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object
05-25-2004 9:38 PM


Re: Free will
Willow :
Your arguement sounds like you got it out of a comic book. If God has the power to send Satin into the the bottomless pit then God screwed up royaly by not doing it day one rather than allowing Satan to enter the Garden of Eden. You make it out to be some sort of game with peoples lives at stake. Good lord get your head out of the sand and think about what you are saying for a change.
If God created Satan not knowing that Satan would eventually betray God's trust then God cannot be called all knowing. If God did indeed know that Satan would betray him and did nothing about it then God is incompetent and as guilty as Satan.
The real reason for sin in the world has nothing to do with any Satan but requires a much more rational explaination. Without sin, such as one species eatting the other, evolution would not work and God's ultimate creation would still be at the bacterial stage.
In the future try to do a little more thinking and less quoting of scripture that you are ill prepared to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-25-2004 9:38 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by BobAliceEve, posted 05-26-2004 8:14 AM Charles Munroe has not replied
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-26-2004 3:42 PM Charles Munroe has replied

  
BobAliceEve
Member (Idle past 5395 days)
Posts: 107
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Joined: 02-03-2004


Message 36 of 65 (110624)
05-26-2004 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Charles Munroe
05-26-2004 5:18 AM


So how does this creationist feel?
If I may segway...
My first recommendation when one has a question for God is for the person with the question to ask the Person with the answer.
And back to the topic...
As most of you are aware, I believe that Adam and Eve were a special creation of God - before animals actually existed on the earth. I can, as a "creationist" relate my thoughts on the topic.
I do not think it worrisome that intelligent life may exist elsewhere and if life does exist elsewhere, I would imagine that I would get to see it someday. I am not worried by the possibility of life in a test-tube; He never said he could not teach us how to make living things. I would not be worried if science was able to extend life (it has already on average doubled it).
None of the initial questions seems problematic to me.
I doubt that we will create a universe with the purpose He has.
Best regards,
BAE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-26-2004 5:18 AM Charles Munroe has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 37 of 65 (110711)
05-26-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Charles Munroe
05-26-2004 5:18 AM


Re: Free will
The Bible says inability to understand spiritual things is an indication that God does not want you.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Your arguement sounds like you got it out of a comic book.
______________________________________________________________________
It is what the Bible teaches - it is the truth whether you embrace it or not.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
If God created Satan not knowing that Satan would eventually betray God's trust then God cannot be called all knowing.
______________________________________________________________________
I HAVE ALREADY argued that God's omniscience has ONE exception.
IF free will exists (and it does) how can God be perfectly omniscient ?
Free will beings (including Lucifer/Satan) can change their minds at will. This means God does not know FOR SURE but He can be ready in either case. He can predict - but He does not know for sure until the being does whay they do.
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
The real reason for sin in the world has nothing to do with any Satan but requires a much more rational explaination. Without sin, such as one species eatting the other, evolution would not work and God's ultimate creation would still be at the bacterial stage.
______________________________________________________________________
Do you have any evidence for these bare assertions ?
I used the Bible for mine.
How does evolution disprove the God of Genesis ?
Charles Munroe quote:
______________________________________________________________________
In the future try to do a little more thinking and less quoting of scripture that you are ill prepared to understand.
______________________________________________________________________
You are the defective God rejected person. IF the Bible is meaningless to you then this means you have no God sense - removed by God for premeditated rejection of His Bosshood over your life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-26-2004 5:18 AM Charles Munroe has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Charles Munroe, posted 05-26-2004 6:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 41 by General Nazort, posted 08-19-2004 4:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-19-2004 5:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Charles Munroe
Member (Idle past 3635 days)
Posts: 40
From: Simi Valley, CA USA
Joined: 09-07-2003


Message 38 of 65 (110733)
05-26-2004 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
05-26-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Free will
Willow :
Your problem is you see and hear what you want to see and hear not what is actually there. You have made accusations concerning my beliefs that you have no basis for making. I understand that you are quoting Genesis as though it is to be taken word for word as absolutely the word of God.
First - Consider that NO where in Genesis is there any statement that this is the word of God. The story appears to originate thousands of years before Moses supposedly wrote it down. In that passage of time stories get distorted and when finally written down tend to take on a fairy tale quality reflecting the ignorance of the real world in that remote age. The key to understanding is to try to determine what it was that the original story was about.
Example : The Flood of Noah
Literalist have it that the ark contained animals from all over the world. They never stop to explain how animals managed to make it to the Old World from the New World or Australia. Answer - the only animals that ever went on the ark are those that were local.
Literalist have it that Noah made a massive wooden ship, the largest ever built until the 1800's AD. Try to visualize how you would make such a massive ship. First you would need immense amounts of sawn timber. OK! What kind of saw are you going to use? Steel or iron? Forget it. You are in the Bronze Age. OK! Go to a metal shop and secure a sheet of bronze the thickness of a saw blade and have a saw filer cut teeth in the sheet of bronze and mount it on a saw handle. Now get a piece of 2" x 4" and try cutting it in two. OH, you hardly got through the cut and the saw is so dull it won't cut. My My, I guess we can say Noah is going to have a tough time building a wooden ark. If you understand the story you would come to the conclusion that he used only a flake of Obsidian. To understand that you have to go back to the text and ask a few questions; the answers are there if you look closely. As for the world covered in water? Take a cruise and once a hundred miles to sea look around 360 degrees. Do you get the errie feeling that the "entire world is covered in water"? Noah did. And the flood? The Mediterranean Sea bursting through and flooding the Black Sea with a flow 200 times that of Niagra Falls. It happened in 5,350 BC.
Conclusion: The story of the flood is not a fairy tales just an event that through time has been distorted. Literalist have managed to turn it in to an unbelieveable fairy tale by their incompetent interpretation just like they have made a mess of other events in the Bible.
The God you seem to discribe is incompetent, ignorant and vain. The real God has none of these qualities and certainly doesn't send people to Hell simple because they don't believe in him, or never heard his message.
Science and Evolution are not the enemies of the Bible. They explain how things happened, they do not confirm or deny the existence of God; on that question they are neutral, It is the literalist fundamentalists that simple can't stand that. They posit that if you fail to involve God you are false. Utter nonsense. When you examine the Bible, as a detective would, one finds strong evidence that the story of Genesis is about Evolution. Seems unreal but that scenario eliminates all of the promblems we have argued about. Is it ture; well if it makes for a rational story, rather than the problem plagued fundamentalist version then I would say yes.
As I earlier mentioned. Leave the Old Testament to the Rabbis, you will have your hands full concentrating only on the words of Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-26-2004 3:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Myron
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 65 (135118)
08-18-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
03-30-2004 9:58 PM


What is millions of years go, another civilization sent a probe to examine that was once a very young planet Earth, but this civilization just didn't manage to make it sterile enough?
Come to think of it, every living thing on this planet had DNA. The code of life. Take the Gazelle. It begins with a sperm and an egg. They both join and the DNA fuse. This egg that is of a single cell begins to divide.
Ok, so this DNA ends up resulting in a complex life form that by instinct get up on it's legs withing a very short time after birth and the youngster knows how to gallop? All of this from two strands of DNA that fuse together?
Is this all really just a fluke of evolution, or is it deliberate? Strange really. Did something decide to run an experiment and either is not around anymore to monitor it, or is Earth a forgotten experiment.
Just food for thought . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 9:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 65 (135169)
08-19-2004 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Myron
08-18-2004 9:38 PM


Myron, the problem is that doesn;t change the question. If we push the origin of life off earth andninto space, it still needs to be explained. All we will be saying is that we can't figure it out from here. But there is in fact no reason to think this might be true, even if it is a notional possibility.

This message is a reply to:
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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 65 (135310)
08-19-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
05-26-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Free will
I must disagree with WillowTree on several important points.
First, God did not create humans to repopulate heaven. If he wanted to do that he would just create some more angels.
Second, freewill does not get rid of omniscience. God knew what Lucifer and Adam would do, but he choose to create them anyway.

Pray for mercy from... PUSS! In boots. (Don't forget the Spanish accent)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-26-2004 3:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 65 (135334)
08-19-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object
05-26-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Free will
Refering to Charles Monroe WILLOWTREE rants:
You are the defective God rejected person. IF the Bible is meaningless to you then this means you have no God sense - removed by God for premeditated rejection of His Bosshood over your life.
Once again, instead of dealing with points raised in a discussion, WILLOWTREE resorts to attacking the individual.
How does evolution disprove the God of Genesis ?
Evolution does not disprove the GOD of Genesis, only the creation myth found in it.

The Map is not the Territory!


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-26-2004 3:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Astrid
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 65 (135742)
08-20-2004 5:12 PM


I think that the first reaction to finding life on other planets of the religious community would be some sort of shock. After all, in the Bible Earthis the centre of the Universe. However, most christians now also have accepted a heliocentric (meaning the Sun is the centre of the Universe) image of the world, so they would eventually get to accept this discovery also.
As to the ability to lengthen one's life indefinitely - most people would first object, but that's with most medical advances. After a while, it would indeed become accepted by most people - but not by all, I think. After all, there are still people who refuse medical treatment cause they feel God created them and made them the way they are, so no-one should interfere with that.
I, personally, don't see why religion would contradict extraterrestrial life or the possiblity to lengthen human life. We increasingly get to understand the way God created the Universe with all its mysteries and natural laws, and discovering extraterrestrial life is part of that.
And as for a medical advancement that would make human beings immortal - can't we say that God provided us with the knowledge and ability to make such advances? By the way, it would be highly unlikely to make humans immortal (and eventually the Universe will end anyway, and there's no-one that can stop that except for, if He created the universe, God), and I consider genetic and other research that will stop the aging process etc. as similar to other research which is being done to treat or cure illnesses.
Astrid

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 44 of 65 (138224)
08-30-2004 6:39 PM


bump
Bumping this topic due to similar question being proposed by Lam.
Changing the thread title also.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 45 of 65 (138248)
08-30-2004 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AdminAsgara
08-30-2004 6:39 PM


Re: bump
Thanx, AA. I'll state my question here.
What if we find life existing on at least one other world? It doesn't have to be intelligent life. It could be single celled organisms. Will there be any problem between the new finding and bible fundyism?

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-30-2004 6:39 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
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