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Author Topic:   Mimicry: Please help me understand how
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 211 of 241 (442598)
12-21-2007 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by MartinV
12-21-2007 4:04 PM


I think I missed a chapter in your explanation. A man doesn't know the answer to a question about caterpillars so he asks a friend who refers him to a third man who gives what he thinks is the answer to the question and the first man tells the second man. The idea aligns with a hypothesis the second man had developed regarding butterflies. Therefore they suffered from the medical condition of sclerosis?

Do you see how I might think there is something missing from what you have written regarding your reasoning?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by MartinV, posted 12-21-2007 4:04 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by MartinV, posted 12-22-2007 3:15 AM Modulous has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 212 of 241 (442633)
12-22-2007 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Modulous
12-21-2007 6:35 PM


Your rendering of the story is nice and almost correct. I like it, just a small improvement:

A man doesn't know the answer to a question about conspicuous coloration of insects so he asks a friend who refers him to a third man who gives what he thinks is the answer to the question and the first man tells the second man. The idea aligns with a hypothesis the second man had developed regarding conspicuous coloration of insects.

Perfect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Modulous, posted 12-21-2007 6:35 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by sinequanon, posted 12-22-2007 5:54 AM MartinV has not yet responded
 Message 214 by Modulous, posted 12-22-2007 7:17 AM MartinV has responded

  
sinequanon
Member (Idle past 1000 days)
Posts: 331
Joined: 12-17-2007


Message 213 of 241 (442643)
12-22-2007 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by MartinV
12-22-2007 3:15 AM


You've forgotten to mention the great integrity of the individuals involved, or one could be led to suspect impropriety.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by MartinV, posted 12-22-2007 3:15 AM MartinV has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 214 of 241 (442652)
12-22-2007 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by MartinV
12-22-2007 3:15 AM



Your rendering of the story is nice and almost correct. I like it, just a small improvement:

A man doesn't know the answer to a question about conspicuous coloration of insects so he asks a friend who refers him to a third man who gives what he thinks is the answer to the question and the first man tells the second man. The idea aligns with a hypothesis the second man had developed regarding conspicuous coloration of insects.

Perfect.

Well, I don't see that there is much difference only you have specified colouration and generalized 'insects' instead of caterpillars/butterflies.

That's fine, but you clipped the end off about how this is diagnostic of a medical condition which was apparently your point and you once again neglected to give further details about how you arrived at this conclusion as I requested.

So, with a little bit more explanation...could you tell me what your point is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by MartinV, posted 12-22-2007 3:15 AM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by MartinV, posted 12-22-2007 2:46 PM Modulous has not yet responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 215 of 241 (442741)
12-22-2007 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Modulous
12-22-2007 7:17 AM


quote:

So, with a little bit more explanation...could you tell me what your point is?

The whole story sounds funny for me. Maybe we grew up in different cultural tradition and your sense of humour is different - even though I like english humour. That's all.

Merry Christmas to you.


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 Message 214 by Modulous, posted 12-22-2007 7:17 AM Modulous has not yet responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 216 of 241 (443920)
12-27-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Modulous
12-14-2007 4:21 PM



There are lots of non-noxious wasps for a start.

I've made a little googling and have found this:

quote:

Mud dauber wasp, Sphecidae ( Plate 5 ). It is a black wasp with a long, thin waist, and is not a social wasp. It is not very aggressive and rarely stings people. However, it often builds its mud nests close to human activity.

But obviously it can sting.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in021

A guy made a photo of black wasp and asked about it. The answer:

quote:

"Hi Ruben,
I checked with an expert, Eric Eaton, who wrote back:
"The lateral view shows it to be something in the sphecine tribe Larrini. The genera there are a real beast. You have to look at the ocelli (simple eyes) to even have a clue.

For those wasps having more warning coloration would have given them some advantage, wouldn't it? Predators would better remember more conspicuos wasps and their alleles should spread over populations more readily.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Modulous, posted 12-14-2007 4:21 PM Modulous has responded

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 Message 217 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2007 5:37 PM MartinV has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 217 of 241 (443976)
12-27-2007 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by MartinV
12-27-2007 2:18 PM


For those wasps having more warning coloration would have given them some advantage, wouldn't it? Predators would better remember more conspicuos wasps and their alleles should spread over populations more readily.

Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't - I suppose we could test that hypothesis. Either way, what is your point? If it would serve as an advantage, and it is possible to get to it without taking a reduction of overall fitness - then we might see it if it were to occur. If an appropriate mutation doesn't occur, or if getting there requires some kind of temporary sacrifice of fitness - we probably won't see it happening.

We could point to a thousand examples of poor design - not just wasps that don't advertise their own noxiousness, we can start with the human body. However, stupid design and the reasons why we see so much of it are not the topic. We're meant to be talking about mimicry.

I've said it over and over again. Aposematicism isn't inevitable - evolution doesn't predict that all noxious animals must develop it, it is an event that can be explained if it does occur.


This message is a reply to:
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MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 218 of 241 (460863)
03-19-2008 3:06 PM


Coral snakes "mimicry" seriously challenged
Arnold B. Grobman in his article

An Alternative Solution to the Coral Snake Mimic Problem (Reptilia, Serpentes, Elapidae)

JSTOR:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?si.....CO;2-R

calls the whole issue of coral snakes mimicry as pseudomimicry. Next to maps and areas of distribution of "mimics" he presented in the article many other interesting facts that are unexplainable by neodarwinian selection fancies. The author dismissed selection as the source of resemblance between coral snakes and their so called "mimics". Interestig are his examples of snakes that are "aposematic" only on their ventral side and so no predator can be warned/scared by it.

For instance ring-neck snake:

The author of the article (1978) was inspired by ideas of Reighard (1908) who dismissed the selection as the source of some colorfull fish.

A. Grobman concludes:

quote:

With little or no selection pressure through predation, bright colors and bizarre patterns have arisen among a variety of unrelated species of secretive snakes. Among a substantial number of those species, several independently have developed color patterns of gross similarity although differing in detail. Snakes of similar size with grossly similar patterns bear a superficial resemblance to each other. When such resembling species occupy approximately the same
geographic area, the phenomenon might be called pseudomimicry. It is proposed that the superficial morphological resemblances among the coral snake, scarlet snake, and scarlet kingsnake in the southeastern United States comprise an example of pseudomimicry.


Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Modulous, posted 03-19-2008 3:38 PM MartinV has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 219 of 241 (460865)
03-19-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by MartinV
03-19-2008 3:06 PM


Nice 30 year old article. I wonder how you might explain

quote:
The researchers created 1,200 life-size models of coral and scarlet king snakes out of plasticine, a mixture of wax and modeling clay and placed the copies in the wild, both within the coral snake's natural range in the southeastern United States and north of that range in central North Carolina, where they are absent. The biologists reasoned that if mimicry were causing the king snake to resemble the coral snake, predators would be more likely to attack the former where coral snakes are not found.
...
"Attacks were much more frequent on our ringed models in central North Carolina than they were in southern North Carolina and South Carolina, about 50 percent vs. about 6 percent," Pfennig said. "Various predators readily attacked our model scarlet king snakes but only where no coral snakes lived."

this strange pattern. Read more here. Sounds like a little more than pseudomimicry to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by MartinV, posted 03-19-2008 3:06 PM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by MartinV, posted 03-19-2008 4:05 PM Modulous has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 220 of 241 (460867)
03-19-2008 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Modulous
03-19-2008 3:38 PM


Yes. I am glad that the phenomenon has been fully explained by this experiment. In my article there is written:

quote:

Gehlbach observed that about 16% of the allopatric Sonora specimens are "mimics" of Micrurus and a comparable percentage of sympatric Sonora species are also "mimics." From these data, Gehlbach suggested that no mimetic advantage apparently is associated with color
pattern resemblances.

Gehlbach must have been wrong. It is not important what is the number of living individuals, what counts is plasteline models.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Modulous, posted 03-19-2008 3:38 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Modulous, posted 03-19-2008 5:51 PM MartinV has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 221 of 241 (460871)
03-19-2008 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by MartinV
03-19-2008 4:05 PM


I'm not following you.
How do you explain the pattern of attacks without reference to mimicry?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by MartinV, posted 03-19-2008 4:05 PM MartinV has responded

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 Message 222 by MartinV, posted 03-20-2008 2:03 AM Modulous has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 222 of 241 (460898)
03-20-2008 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Modulous
03-19-2008 5:51 PM


There must have been a difference between attacks on real snakes in reality and their plasteline models in experiments. And how do you explain the aposematic coloration only on ventral side of some snake species?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Modulous, posted 03-19-2008 5:51 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2008 8:38 AM MartinV has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 223 of 241 (460904)
03-20-2008 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by MartinV
03-20-2008 2:03 AM


There must have been a difference between attacks on real snakes in reality and their plasteline models in experiments.

Still not following Martin - how would that explain the correlation between birds attacking plasticine mimics of noxious species and frequency of noxious species in that environment? You've told me what evidence you believe exists, what's your hypothesis that would explain the correlation detected in this study?

And how do you explain the aposematic coloration only on ventral side of some snake species?

The topic is mimicry, not aposematicism. Feel free to start a new topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by MartinV, posted 03-20-2008 2:03 AM MartinV has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by MartinV, posted 03-20-2008 2:02 PM Modulous has responded

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3965 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 224 of 241 (460933)
03-20-2008 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Modulous
03-20-2008 8:38 AM



Still not following Martin - how would that explain the correlation between birds attacking plasticine mimics of noxious species and frequency of noxious species in that environment? You've told me what evidence you believe exists, what's your hypothesis that would explain the correlation detected in this study?

Authors picked up two sympatric "mimics" - scarlet kingsnakes and sonoran mountain kingsnakes. Such selection is no way representative sample to explain the whole phenomenon of coral snakes mimicry. Both species are sympatric with their models. According Grobman's table there are 20 non-venomous snakes in USA mimicking coral snakes. Eleven of them are essentially allopatric and only eight are essentially sympatric. Even if the experiment with plasteline models could have some relation to reality it doesn't address to main point: Was it really natural selection that led to such resemblance? Authors mentioned this crucial point with one sentence only: "Many coral snakes and non-venomous kingsnakes possess red, yellow (or white), and black ringed markings, which predators avoid, though often without prior experience.

I have no information about predators which survived an encounter with deadly poisonous model, recovered and then avoided attacking
them again. Considering both points - many allopatric mimics and deadly poisonous models I don't see what role natural selection could play in occurence of the mimicry.


The topic is mimicry, not aposematicism. Feel free to start a new topic

We are discussing coral snakes mimicry. This example is related closely with it. Also professor Grobman mentioned it in his article as contra argument of natural selection in the case of coral snakes mimicry. It is an opinion of a hepretologist regarding the discussed issue so I don't see reason to discuss it in another thread (taking into consideration what torture it would be before approving my new thread with admins like you).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2008 8:38 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Modulous, posted 03-20-2008 2:33 PM MartinV has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 225 of 241 (460938)
03-20-2008 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by MartinV
03-20-2008 2:02 PM


Authors picked up two sympatric "mimics" - scarlet kingsnakes and sonoran mountain kingsnakes. Such selection is no way representative sample to explain the whole phenomenon of coral snakes mimicry.

Of course. But does their similarity lead to the protection of the tasty snake in areas with noxious snakes?

Even if the experiment with plasteline models could have some relation to reality it doesn't address to main point: Was it really natural selection that led to such resemblance?

Maybe, maybe not. There is certainly a selective advantage for some of these snakes to keep looking the way they do, that's for sure. If the two species are closely related, they may have merely inherited their striking appearance, and the fact that one is noxious allows the other to not be noxious but still be afforded some protection.

We are discussing coral snakes mimicry. This example is related closely with it.

It's called topic drift. The OP was talking about mimicry of insects to their background or inert things...camouflage essentially, we drifted to discussing bees and wasps and their mimics, then you moved us over to snake mimicry and snake aposematicism. The function of a certain species' appearance is not really of interest to me in this topic, not unless it has a mimic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by MartinV, posted 03-20-2008 2:02 PM MartinV has responded

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