where was the transition within fossil record?? [Stalled: randman]

Then I suppose a little smilie with a dunce cap would be out of the question?

As you see from his reply, robin, randman likes whales.Early in the whale thread I set about extrapolating backward from the number of presently known species in order to compare the number of known fossil species with a reasonable estimate of the number of species through time.Even the initial guesstimates made fossilization look like a damned rare event.Randman didn't like that for "apples and oranges" reasons, though, of course, one purpose of averaging is to see what can be said about unlike things...Nope, it's gotta be whales. I believe it is because randman believes the "land mammal to whale" lineage provokes particularly strong incredulity, so he wants it mentioned in print/on screen as much as possible.That agitprop motivation is his sole reason for being here. He may be a kludgy AI program.

So a tight correlation between two sets of data, both previously predicted by a hypothesis, supports that hypothesis less well than it supports vague notions that make no predictions at all?To quote mark, "Pah!"Say, randman: Are you still claiming that 90% of all existing fossils have already been found, or have you abandoned that point-free collector's curve?Also, could you point me to where you get your quantifications of whale species, past and present, and fossil discoveries? I'm having trouble finding that data.Nor can I find info that supports your oft-repeated assertion that the ocean is conducive to fossilization. A little help there, too, would be nice.Come to think of it, I cannot find anyone else anywhere asserting that they know how many species must have evolved between a modern species and its ancestral species--could you go over where you come up with those ballpark numbers of thousands and thousands?Further, since there are species whose ancestral species are well represented in the fossil record--and if you disagree that there are, answer the question anyway, hypothetically: How many lineages are/would be required before qualifying as evidence? If you have found one group not well represented, so what, as long as there are others? Another way to ask the same question: Will only one well represented lineage knock your argument aside, or are you holding out for thousands and thousands?edit: subject-verb agreement...O the shame.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 10-21-2005 04:45 PM

I have asked on multiple occasions for you to back up these claims about whale fossil abundance.Show me the data.

Randman, you posted links to news stories about whale fossil discoveries. They are interesting, but they do not support your assertion. In fact, most of the stories concern a single find; ironically (in the context of this discussion), whale fossils are described as rare. Further, the decay process for whale remains is described, including the fact that everything, including the bones, is usually consumed.Even more ironically, the species found is described as unknown in at least several of the stories.I assume you assume the species ID will not provide a new (to science) ancestor (though one of your stories suggests that particular find may be just that).How many whale fossils have been found? Of which species? From what era? Where were they found and in what context?You are clearly still implicitly embracing your prior claim that most fossils that will be found have been found: can you show me the data on the pace of whale fossil discoveries? My subjective impression from the dates on my own google search is that the pace has picked up over the past decade or so...true, just as subjective as your impression--but then I didn't base any broad assertions on mine.There are many web links concerning whale fossil finds, for sure, but you have supplied no data to support your assertions.As it stands, your argument really is no more than, "I have a subjective impression that..." Subjective impressions can spark interesting discussions, but they do not support scientific assertions, nor are they valid grounds from which to falsify ToE.Don't tell me stories; show me data.