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Author | Topic: New Questions--moral perspective | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Evolution, as even admitted by Gould, Darwin, Asimov, and many other evolutionists, is nothing more than a theory. So is gravity. Care to jump off a bridge?
Honestly, neither Biblical creationism nor Darwinian evolutionism can be proven by science Wrong again. Evolution is a scientific theory based on observation, experimentation, and physical evidence, which is falsifiable and makes testable, accurate predictions. Creationism is superstition, on the other hand.
why don't you get down off your platform and try to prove YOUR OWN theory beyond a reasonable doubt (by the way, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means creating an argument that cannot be refutted with even our BEST understanding of science). It's been done. Why don't you pick up Gould's The Structure of Evolutionary Theory? Of course, it's 1200 pages long. In the meantime you can explain why the genetic evidence and the fossil evidence correspond so accurately if the evolutionary account isn't in fact true.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I have talked with enough evolutionists out there to know that they simply DON'T know how to prove their theory to the open world (otherwise there would not be so much back-and-forth conflict among scientists). There's not, though. The vast majority of biologists and paleontologists agree that the evolutionary model is an accurate picture of thehistory of life on earth.
So, when you are ready to set aside your EXTREMELY, UNFATHOMABLY-BIAS opinions against creationism Done so. All you have to do is convince me with evidence and I'll become a creationist. I promise.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Note Crash he does not make a single point or argument for creationism that he so fervently ascribes. Yeah, I love these guys who come on and think that "hey, consider the alternatives!" is all it will take to get us to abandon evolutionism; as though we're going to do over years of research and consideration just because they told us to. Well, ok. Here I am, folks, looking at the alternatives. I'm looking.... I'm looking.. yup. Evolution is still the best explanation.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
First of all, i've taken a look at Gould's new 1200-page book. but guess what, as i have said before, evolutionists' knowledge of science does not impress me--i'm a realist and a skeptic of western science. Based on what training, exactly? Forgive me, but from where I'm from, you actually have to be knowledgable in a subject before your criticisms of it are to be taken seriously. I'm not expecting you to just bow before a book. What I'm expecting you to do is have some knowledge about the theory you think is wrong. After all I didn't come to the conclusion that creationism was bogus until I knew creationism inside and out.
And no book is going to make me respect the evolutionary theory JUST BECAUSE it is so long. Did you try reading it? Just curious. After all it wasn't the page length that I had hoped would convince you but rather the copious scientific evidence within.
Also, the fossil record does not contain evidence for evolution. Instead of looking at quotes about the fossil record, why don't you look at the record? The entire record is evidence for evolution. In fact, just like you, I can prove it with a quote:
quote: Hrm, maybe quotes aren't a good way to prove what's real and what's not, eh? How about you look at the copious examples of transitional vertebrate fossils in the fossil record?
Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ Also, genetics does not contain proof of evolution either: Again, quotes don't constitute evidence. The truth is there's great concordinance between patterns of descent inferred from the genetics of organisms and the patterns inferred from the fossil record.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Evolutionists aren't finding enough fossils to fill the missing links What are you talking about? There's a vast amount of known transitional vertebrate fossils. Didn't you read the link? Pardon me but I'm inclined to accept the evidence right in front of my face over the words of folks telling me that what I'm looking at isn't really there.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Also, what is wrong with quotes. They're not evidence. Any person can say anything they want. In fact you could concievably write anything you please and attribute it to whatever source you cared to. Quotes aren't an argument. Just because somebody says a think is so, doesn't mean that it is.
Earlier, when I gave you an argument I was attacked by not showing references. You need to quote from primary sources - published, peer-reviewed scientific journals.
Now that i HAVE, you apparently glanced over the entire list of quotes without contemplating their reasoning and credibility What do you think the credibility of the World Book Encyclopedia from 1966 is in regards to advanced biological science? Not high, because it's not a primary source.
Honestly, wasn't if from a quote by either a teacher or writer in which YOU first heard of the fossil record? Yes, but that's not what supports it for me. It's supported by peer-reviewed, primary sources.
Again, don't ask for an argument and then ignore its credibility. You didn't present a credible argument. You presented a fallacious argument from authority.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Don't presume to debunk an argument because you don't like where it came from. Oh, I won't, trust me. You'd know that I wouldn't do that if you'd actually present an argument.
and yet you expect me to believe it just because of what they say? No, I expect you to believe it because they've supported their arguments from primary, peer-reviewed research. Do the same and I'll pay attention to your arguments, too.
Now, let's talk about the Miller Experiment You mean the one that showed that simple, inorganic chemistry can, under specific conditions, create molecules that previously, were known only to come from living organic chemistry? Yes, very interesting, but it neither proves nor disproves any model of abiogenesis. So I don't see the relevance, here. Also, the experiment was performed in what, the 50's? Don't you have anything more recent to talk about? How about this article from PubMed?
quote: How come you act like the Miller Experiment was the last thing to happen in the Origin of Life research?
After all, if Darwinian evolution is to prevail, it has to be proven and demonstrated that life can arise from nonliving matter without the aide of intelligent intervention. Hardly. Darwinian Evolution is simply the position that the current diversity of organisms on Earth is best explained through a model of common descent and modification via natural selection and random mutation. Gosh, for a guy who claimed that he used to be an evolutionist, how come you know so little about the theory?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I DID used to be an evolutionist, and I understand thoroughly what Darwin's viewpoint is. So you keep saying, but then why did you mistate it so completely? You may very well have been an evolutionist, but you show no signs of any kind of authentic biological instruction.
I understand that there is no relevant connection here, but my argument is that you are telling me that using material from the 1950's is wrong or outdated when in fact the majority of "evidence" that supports your theory was developed much earlier and has since been undergoing slight modifications. No, my argument is that you're making the Miller Experiment out to be the be-all-end-all of abiogenesis research, and it's not. There's been over 50 subsequent years of research into the subject, none of which you appear familiar with. You can try to discredit the experiment all you like but within the limits of what it set out to prove - that organic molecules can come from inorganic processes - the experiment was successful, groundbreaking, and unassailiable. Did you have a comment on the abstract I cited? I thought it was very interesting.
afterall, if it can in any way be utterly proven that spontaneous generation of life is scientifically impossible, then isn't the entire theory of the evolution of life at stake? Not at all. Evolution works regardless of where that first life comes from. The theory doesn't change if the first living thing came from Earth, or from Mars, or from God. It's still the same theory no matter what. If you want to disprove evolution then you have to prove that the mechanisms of evolution can't give rise to the diversity of species on Earth. You're just using abiogenesis as a smokescreen.
So, if oxygen is present in our atmosphere, then elaborate for me on how it was possible for the first living organism to arise and escape the principles of oxidization. Since oxygen on Earth is the result of living photosynthesis, what makes you think oxygen would be present at the formation of life? This appears to be a poorly-concieved objection.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
genetic mutations rarely if ever produce beneficial variation. But no beneficial mutation has yet been observed. Wait, which is it? Do they rarely occur or do they never occur? Well, the answer is that they do occur:
Are Mutations Harmful? so I don't understand your objection. Perhaps you're misinformed?
there would still have to be demonstrated genetic variations leading to new species, let alone leading to HIGHER species and more complex organisms. There's more than enough evidence of mutations leading to greater complexity. Of course, no single mutation can lead to a new species. It takes reproductive isolation and an accumulation of mutations to result in speciation.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Without oxygen, you don't get the creation of ozone, which blocks an excess of UV light from entering our atmosphere. And as you may know, UV light is responsible for the destruction of Ammonia. Except that it's very likely that the first living thing came into existence near the bottom of the sea. So, so much for your UV light. It simply doesn't penetrate at that depth.
Now, abiogenesis IS a relevant topic because the vast majority of scientists who believe in evolution believe in atheistic evolution (darwinsism). I would hardly call 55% a "vast majority". And that's just looking at the biologists.
Furthermore, STOP assuming that I know nothing of evolution It's not an assumption. It's a conclusion based on data. Specifically, the data of the repeated mistakes and inaccuracies you promulgate in regards to the theory.
Mind you, this IS IN NO WAY a contest to see who is smarter No, of course not. It's a contest to see who can support their position with evidence. And what's becoming increasingly clear is that you're pretty unaware of the evidence for evolution, yet you feel totally comfortable criticising the theory. Personally that bespeaks of a level of personal arrogance that I simply find unbelievable.
Anyway, my point is this: you have to try and discredit me by insulting my intellect... We've said nothing about your intellect. Simply your education. It's possible that you're smarter than all of us put together. But it's obvious that we're considerably better informed on these scientific issues than you.
Also, you failed to point out any type of speciation Observed Instances of Speciation or observable increases in complexity of an organism Complexity? What's that? How would you measure it in an organism?
Thus an example of an "increase in complexity" that is devastating to a person. Yet, the very same increase in "complexity" - additional copies of chromosomes - in plants lead to bigger, stronger plants with larger, jucier fruit. So clearly some "increases in complexity" are beneficial.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I only hope that you could humble yourselves as I have made a prevailing effort to do Humble? You've taken a position against a theory that you've made very clear that you don't understand. How is that humble? That's the very height of arrogance!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Furthermore, there exists a great lack of evidence supporting speciation You must have missed the FAQ I pointed you to:
Observed Instances of Speciation Short of that, would you accept Answers In Genesis on the subject?
quote: from
Missing Link
| Answers in Genesis
So you see, the evidence that speciation occurs is so compelling that even a leading Creationist organization is forced to agree that it occurs.
Also, if life ever is created in the laboratory (which it hasn't even come close to yet) then that would only further promote my point--IT REQUIRES INTELLIGENT DESIGN AND PLANNING TO CREATE LIFE!!! So then you admit there's no evidence we could give you that would convince you of natural abiogenesis? If we can't do it in the lab, that proves it can't happen? And if we can do it in the lab, that proves that it can't happen either? How convinient for you. You've adopted a position that can't be falsified by any data. Now, can you give us a reason why we should bother to talk to you if you've set yourself impervious to sense?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There may exist all the world's best intentions in solving the idea that life originated from a common ancestor, but it stll is not proven. It's as proven as any other theory, including the Theory of Relativity, the Kinetic Theory of Gases, and the Germ Theory of Disease. Do you object to teaching those in school, too?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This will be my LAST post Whew, good thing. I was about to respond to your mish-mash of half-truths, lies, insults, and flat-out errors with well-reasoned, well-supported arguments delivered in the height of civility. But now I'm glad I don't have to, because that would have been a lot of work. I guess it's a lot easier for you to cut and run before your arguements are torn to ribbons, right?
With that said, this post is a waste of time. No shit.
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