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Author Topic:   Are creationist crticisms of ToE based upon the assumption that creation happened?
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 1 of 37 (40208)
05-15-2003 8:08 AM


I've asked this question in a number of different ways over the
years and never got a satisfactory answer (and I am open to one).
If one didn't hold a creationist belief, what about ToE would
one object to?
What evidence exists that would indicate creation (without
any reference to any religious system that has ever
prevailed)?
Isn't the majority of anti-evolutionary thinking biased by
the assumption that creation is, in fact, the way it happened?
The creationist approach seems to be this::
1) Creation is what happened.
2) If we add X idea to the Biblical creation account Y data supports it.
3) If we assume creation Y data must be wrong, so what techniques could be wrong that are used to measure Y data.
All anti-evo discussions I have witnessed boil down to acceptance
of an unsupported creation assumption.
I have not seen any statement of what one would expect the world
to look like if creation were the key (even ID works backwards
just in case anyone was about to claim otherwise).

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-16-2003 1:55 AM Peter has not replied
 Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-16-2003 2:08 AM Peter has replied
 Message 9 by Asgara, posted 05-18-2003 2:49 PM Peter has replied
 Message 17 by Paul, posted 05-21-2003 4:21 PM Peter has replied
 Message 18 by Brad McFall, posted 05-21-2003 4:33 PM Peter has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 2 of 37 (40341)
05-15-2003 11:37 PM


I guess it all chains Back to the Natural Human way of thinking since in Our little Human world is made therefore Everything Must be made. I hate Being the type of person that sits there wondering the big WHY? sometimes but oh well.... some people can care less and just follow what they are told which is what creationist are they Just Follow without asking why

  
Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 37 (40357)
05-16-2003 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
05-15-2003 8:08 AM


for us laymen, what is "ToE?"
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 05-15-2003 8:08 AM Peter has not replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 37 (40358)
05-16-2003 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Flamingo Chavez
05-16-2003 1:55 AM


Theory of Evolution ToE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-16-2003 1:55 AM Flamingo Chavez has not replied

  
Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 37 (40362)
05-16-2003 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
05-15-2003 8:08 AM


"Isn't the majority of anti-evolutionary thinking biased by
the assumption that creation is, in fact, the way it happened?"
I would agree with this, most literal creationists that I've debated against seem to follow a similar thought patern.
1) I believe in God
2) I believe in the Bible
3) The Bible says it happened this way, so thats what happened
Most people can't even give me a good explanation why one SHOULD interpret the creation account literally, especcialy in the light of good theological analysis.
By the way, I'm an evolutionary creationist...
As for any evidence, I can't point to anything beyond my own personal narrative. Most ppl will not take this for evidence at all. I can tslk to you sbout two (what seem to me) miracles that have saved my life. I can talk to you about how a relationship with my creator has changed my life. But their is nothing quantifiable about my beliefs. I really wouldn't want it any other way.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 05-15-2003 8:08 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 05-16-2003 2:30 AM Flamingo Chavez has not replied
 Message 7 by Peter, posted 05-16-2003 6:58 AM Flamingo Chavez has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 37 (40370)
05-16-2003 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez
05-16-2003 2:08 AM


As for any evidence, I can't point to anything beyond my own personal narrative.
And I, for one, wouldn't argue with you at all. Unless you want to pick on me for not seeing it your way that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-16-2003 2:08 AM Flamingo Chavez has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 7 of 37 (40390)
05-16-2003 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez
05-16-2003 2:08 AM


Since you are an evolutionary creationist we mainly
are in agreement (I got that sense when discussing
Bible literalism anyhow).
We may disagree about the unknowable source of life,
the universe, and everything ... but what's wrong with
that so long as we avoid persecution and jihad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-16-2003 2:08 AM Flamingo Chavez has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 8 of 37 (40455)
05-16-2003 6:13 PM


true as long as we take Facts into account its alright....... and not just Follow (what I think) a form of Belief that is far over do for change.
you can Believe in a God as long as you take what we know as facts into Account. not just say this is it and there is no other way it can be. you need to Keep your mind open
also have you noticed? in topics like this . creationist seem to never post
[This message has been edited by DC85, 05-16-2003]

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 9 of 37 (40574)
05-18-2003 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter
05-15-2003 8:08 AM


I'm new here, but I do notice arguments on these boards that seem the same as arguments I've had over many years with creationist. It all seems to hinge on the one problem that they all have with evolution, even the ones that, for argument's sake, will admit a possibility of no god. Everyone seems to want to believe (or HAVE to) that mankind is special, that we were an intended outcome. With this in mind the probability is too staggering for them. The odds of any particular end point being "the" end point are improbable, but the existance of "any" endpoint is a necessity. Evolution does not have any out-come in mind, but an out-come will occur. IMHO it isn't even the fear that there might not be a god directing everything, it's the fear that we aren't special.
____________________
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peter, posted 05-15-2003 8:08 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 10 of 37 (40629)
05-19-2003 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by DC85
05-16-2003 6:13 PM


I have noticed the lack of fundamenalist creationist
posts ... and evolutionry-creationist stances are Ok
by me since they DO take into account the data and applied
evidential interpretations.
I would have thought that reformation in Christianity would
be a priority ... after all didn't Jesus get nailed to a tree
for suggesting that the predominant Hebrew religion needed an
updating?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by DC85, posted 05-16-2003 6:13 PM DC85 has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 11 of 37 (40630)
05-19-2003 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Asgara
05-18-2003 2:49 PM


I have to agree about the regurgitation of creationist
arguments ... one has to get used to that sort of thing
in this 'great debate'.
And I also agree that the thought that humans are nothing
special appears to underly the rejection of evolution more
than anything else.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 05-19-2003 3:15 PM Peter has replied
 Message 14 by bulldog98, posted 05-20-2003 3:37 PM Peter has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 37 (40666)
05-19-2003 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peter
05-19-2003 7:34 AM


quote:
And I also agree that the thought that humans are nothing
special appears to underly the rejection of evolution more
than anything else.
But I think we ARE special and unique as a species. We are, after all, amazingly sucessful. So successful that we may be the demise of our planet. We can manipulate our environment (and adapt, through use of technology, to different envirenments) to our benefit like no other species we are aware of, except maybe bacteria. Bacteria don't have self-consciousness, thopugh, so we are special in two ways right there.
However, I also believe that every species is special and unique!
All of this "specialness" and "uniqueness" isn't evidence for the supernatural. It does make me find profundity and beauty in randomness, nature, physics, and time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peter, posted 05-19-2003 7:34 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Peter, posted 05-20-2003 6:11 AM nator has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 13 of 37 (40719)
05-20-2003 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
05-19-2003 3:15 PM


I'd agree that all species are unique
As to special ... well it has an unfortunate number
of undertones for my liking. Humans are just animals,
and by no means the only successful species, nor the only
species that can manipulate its environment ... we are just
better adapted to do certain types of manipulation.
No amount of specialness is evidence of God, but the possibility
that we came about ... well ... just because we did rather than
as a part of some grand design seems to scare the hell out
of some people (or into them I suppose )

This message is a reply to:
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bulldog98
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 37 (40778)
05-20-2003 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peter
05-19-2003 7:34 AM


Specialness
ToE not only suggests a rejection of the notion that humans are "special," but also suggests that we have ancestors in common with worms, "pond slime," and other "nasty" creatures. Not to mention, many creationists still use the arguments, "I didn't evolve from a monkey!" I think a lot of it stems from ignorance and misinformation, as well as the simple denial that we may, in fact, have quite a bit in common with bacteria.
***whistling***
Just killing time until the Christian literalists come in with their responses...
[This message has been edited by bulldog98, 05-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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NeilUnreal
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 37 (40833)
05-20-2003 8:51 PM


quote:
"I didn't evolve from a monkey!"
I've said this before, but this is exactly where I think Darwin made his biggest mistake. He and Huxley would have had a much easier time of it if he'd claimed that we were descended from something really cool like a shark or a tiger. Subsequent generations of scientists could then have taken the heat when they figured out where we really came from...
-Neil

Replies to this message:
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