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Author Topic:   Did Eyelids Evolve?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 17 of 117 (445976)
01-04-2008 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rahvin
01-04-2008 3:28 PM


Re: Eyelids Period
The human reproductive system is basically identical to the reproductive system of all eutherian mammals,
fixed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 01-04-2008 3:28 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 117 (446029)
01-04-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 5:02 PM


limbs, organs, and bilateral symmetry
Animals tend to have an even number of limbs because it's more conducive to locomotion and balance.
unless you're a starfish. or any other radially symmetric animal (like corals), in which even/odd limb numbering is somewhat randomly evo-devo. i think you even find the occasional odd-numbered cephalopod. now, what you're getting basically confused about is that all land animals evolved from tetrapods, animals with four feet. this is by far not majority of life on the planet. and if we start counting tails as limbs (especially prehensile ones) you'll find that a lot of land animals actually have an odd number of limbs. ...because, you know, that fifth limb actually aids a lot in locomotion and balance. generally more that the front two -- just ask t. rex.
i think you'll also find that faily advanced animals (such as yourself) lack duplications for various rather important internal organs, such as the heart and brain.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Rahvin, posted 01-04-2008 5:36 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 117 (446032)
01-04-2008 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDarin
01-04-2008 9:57 AM


Let's take eyelids.
Is it the EVO position that early humans may not have had eyelids, but after millions of years the body started saying to its babies "form something over your eyes to keep foreign objects out" or "form something over the eyes that will help us rest for 8 hours"?
If no, what do EVO's believe on human evolution as it relates to the eyelid?
i think you'll find that the earliest primitive photo-sensitive organs were all sub-dermal. ie: they started out covered by skin. but we're talking flatworms here, and long, long before the complex eyeball.
of course, the path from something like that to the human occular system comprises several hundred million years of evolutionary history, and it's rather convoluted. the simplest answer to your initial quandry is "we got our eyelids from our ancestors, who also had eyelids."
indeed, you will have to go pretty far down the evolutionary scale to find an animal anywhere near our path that does not have eyelids. to the fish, i believe. and even then, some of them (such as sharks) have similar structures, as has already been pointed out. and sharks are very primitive fish.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 117 (446179)
01-05-2008 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Rahvin
01-04-2008 5:36 PM


Re: limbs, organs, and bilateral symmetry
Again, I'm just trying to keep it simple so that TheDarin will understand what evolution really means a little better.
...well, here i am caring about accuracy again lol.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by TheDarin, posted 01-06-2008 3:25 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 61 of 117 (446658)
01-06-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by TheDarin
01-06-2008 3:25 PM


Re: limbs, organs, and bilateral symmetry
You are making the Boeing 747 argument vs the watchmaker...I see that. The thing is...a creationist does not try to concoct "something from nothing." We throw our hands up and say "it appears we lack the chip in our brains that can process such a thing."
my brain is organic, and fully intact, thank you. maybe your brain is missing something, or cannot process something, but mine's just fine. as you'll notice, i said "brain" in singular. i have one brain -- this was one example of an organ i brought up above that is not duplicated. it's also example of how an organ can gradually duplicate. primitve amniote brains have only a single hemisphere. my brain has two. i would call that "transitional."
On the other hand, the EVOs argue that you have that answer; you cannot comprehend that you cannot comprehend something. I applaud you for trying, and even encourage you to keep at it. Perhaps you'll figure it out someday...I'm not beyond that... what I cannot see or even come close to seeing is that random, unintelligent mutations resulted in the human reproductive system...or the eyelid.
again, this is simply your failure to see something. evidence is there. if you want to understand the human reproductive system, first look at the primitive amniotic ones, followed by the monotremes (like the platypus) and marsupials and then placental mammals. you'll see a rather clear progression. like so:
You can use as many big words as you wish, and point to observed mutations and specialization. Those things do not exclude ID.
define ID. because now you're pushing its definition so far as to be vacuous, and easily eliminated by ockham's razor as an extraneous variable. if the observed mutatations are enough, what do we need ID for, exactly?
Someone in here implied that I was an AnswersinGenesis guy; that I've been taught a false EVO doctrine. I have been to an AIG seminar many years ago. But they are not preaching an EVO doctrine beyond the mutation those of you in here have described. I have heard nothing new in your responses. I was hoping I would.
take a biology class or five.
I want you to think...really think...could random mutations that have zero intelligence create the human sexual reproductive system?????????????
yes. afterall, it's more or less identical to the reproductive system of every other primate. which is almost identical to every other placental mammal. which is only slightly modified from marsupials. which is only slightly modified from monotremes. which is only slightly modified from other amniotes (like reptiles)... etc. you get the picture.


This message is a reply to:
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