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Author Topic:   Scotus rules 2nd amendment is an individual right
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8551
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 143 of 176 (476506)
07-24-2008 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Rrhain
07-24-2008 3:35 AM


The amendment is justifying why you have a right to a gun and the reason that it gives is not hunting, self-defense, pleasure shooting, etc. Instead, it says that the reason you are allowed to have a gun is so that you can use it in defense of the State.
Exactly right. And this was the Court's reasoniong in recognizing the 2nd Amendment as embodying an "individual" right to keep and bear arms.
The question now turns on whether that "right" is necessary any longer in our modern society. And in deciding this the Court, rightfully so, determind...
quote:
We know of no other enumerated constitutional right whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding “interest-balancing” approach. The very enumeration of the right takes out of the hands of government”even the Third Branch of Government”the power to decide on a case-by-case basis whether the right is really worth insisting upon. A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad.
quote:
Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.
The process of changing the Constitiution is well documented and well used. The Court's ruling, as you yourself have acknowledged, is correct. For the purposes of forming a militia the people have an indiviual right to keep and bear arms. And the Court recognizes their power to take away this right is non-existant. Only through the people and the amendment process can this be accomplished.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Rrhain, posted 07-24-2008 3:35 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Rrhain, posted 07-28-2008 3:50 AM AZPaul3 has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8551
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 155 of 176 (476909)
07-28-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Rrhain
07-28-2008 3:50 AM


Exactly right. And this was the Court's reasoning in recognizing the 2nd Amendment as embodying an "individual" right to keep and bear arms.
But that flies in the face of all previous decisions regarding the Second Amendment.
Irrelevant.
You don't have an individual right to a gun. You have a collective right. That means you don't have a right to a gun for your, individual needs. Instead, you have a right to a gun for the collective needs of the State.
According to the Second Amendment.
The Court disagrees. They interpret the Founders’ reasoning as being there can be no militia without the individual right. The two are inseparable.
And Scalia's claim that "We know of no other enumerated constitutional right whose core protection has been subjected to a freestanding 'interest-balancing' approach" seems to forget all about the First Amendment. It's called the "Lemon test."
“Interest-balancing” in the vernacular of the Court is politically-based and not the same as recognizing legitimate State interest in regulation of rights. It is a fine line and I understand the confusion.
BTW, Lemon did not seek to limit the peoples’ right to religious practice but limit the government’s rights to limit its exercise contrary to the First Amendment. This was a bold restriction against government’s attempts to overstep the establishment clause. Neither “interest-balancing” nor compelling State interest was established in Lemon.
Better cites would have been US v Williams (Kiddy Porn v First Amendment) or Baltimore v Bouknight (Child protection v Fifth Amendment). These do place limits on Constitutional rights by compelling State interest.
But then again, Scalia isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.
If you have ever met the man, as I have, you would know otherwise. He certainly is sharper in Constitutional Law than anyone on this forum.
When you have to point out that your ruling which completely contradicts all previous rulings isn't supposed to be interpreted to mean that it contradicts all previous rulings, then you know you've screwed up somewhere.
Wrong interpretation based on a layman’s incomplete knowledge of the workings of the law. The Court is recognizing that the State has a legitimate interest in regulating the right, but only to the degree that it does not usurp the right in total. And that right is now an individual one. The DC ordinance overstepped this line.
See Williams and Brouknight above.
All previous rulings have said that it is a collective right.
Irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Rrhain, posted 07-28-2008 3:50 AM Rrhain has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8551
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 172 of 176 (477142)
07-30-2008 2:24 PM


This may be seen as an absurd question so please excuse me in advance.
Is there any possibility of this thread getting back on topic?

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