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Author Topic:   Hurricane Katrina
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 286 of 315 (240461)
09-04-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jar
09-04-2005 10:28 PM


Re: Casinos at the waters edge.
I was there when the first boats were being used on the MS coast. That was a while ago ...

The legislation that was approved at the state level left it up to the towns to regulate, they were the ones that initially required the offshore trips.

Of course as soon as one allowed it dockside the other followed so as not to lose the golden goose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 09-04-2005 10:28 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-04-2005 10:45 PM RAZD has responded

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 5009 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 287 of 315 (240463)
09-04-2005 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by RAZD
09-04-2005 10:41 PM


Re: Casinos at the waters edge.
If the hurricane had a personality, it had to be licking it's chops as it approached the coast and seen all the cute little boat toys to toss around.

I can't believe there was no provission to tow them 20 miles out in calmer water to let a storm like this pass.

This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 09-04-2005 10:46 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2005 10:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2005 10:47 PM Lizard Breath has not yet responded
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20239
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 288 of 315 (240464)
09-04-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 10:45 PM


Re: Casinos at the waters edge.
especially when you know how shallow it is there and what that does with waves.

of course the ones that were not capable of floating ... or had no COI\Stability Letter ...

sitting ducks.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-04-2005 10:45 PM Lizard Breath has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 289 of 315 (240469)
09-04-2005 11:03 PM


Just for perspective.
It's currently estimated that Texas alone has taken in 250,000 refugees from Katrina. Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Arkansas and Oklahoma have probably taken in equal numbers.

That's a lot of homeless folk.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 315 (240471)
09-04-2005 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 10:45 PM


Re: Casinos at the waters edge.
Lizard Breath writes:

quote:
I can't believe there was no provision to tow them 20 miles out in calmer water to let a storm like this pass.

Actually, there was a plan years ago to move them into the Back Bay of Biloxi (look at a map and it'll give you an idea of how that would work). It was tried - if I recall correctly, which I'm not sure I do - during Hurricane Georges a few years back, but for some reason the plan was abandoned.

The legislature is all but certain to take up a bill this week to allow the coastal casinos to locate on land. Even the social conservatives now realize that leaving them on barges is not viable; the threat to other property is too great.


"I think younger workers — first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government — promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is."— George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
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dsv
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 291 of 315 (240474)
09-04-2005 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 9:53 PM


Re: The Tragedy that Keeps on Taking
This type of talk is nothing new to anybody here. This person is some kind of double talk professional but I'm not fooled.

Many times, the people who hate Christianity will plant one of there own in the group as a radical and then try to paint the whole group as a bunch of waccos.

I used to think Faith was just a plant. An undercover hardcore atheist because his/her views were just too crazy to be believable. After a while though, I started think that there was some kind of genuine belief there. I think it was from reading all of the responses to admins in Suggestion forums or about suspensions/bannings.

I don't know, I think it's the real deal, personally.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-04-2005 9:53 PM Lizard Breath has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31611
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 292 of 315 (240476)
09-04-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
09-03-2005 7:53 PM


Re: The Tragedy that Keeps on Taking
Faith writes:

As long as the attitude continues to prevail in this country that disaster is a matter of statistics and nothing out of the ordinary, as long as God is ignored or reviled or considered to be remote from these "ordinary" disasters, they will only get worse.

What utter nonsense.

Katrina had NOTHING to do with GOD. To think it is anything other than a perfectly normal event takes a level of willful ignorance of astounding proportions. Such an utterly nonsensical idea is tanatmount to Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, taking GOD's Name in Vain, and the act of a Satanist.

To even be surprised shows astounding ignorance. William Gray predicted the severity of this season last year. Those predictions were published along with the specific data and observations it was based on.

None of the observations were unnatural.

None of the observations were supernatural.

None of of the observations required divine intervention.

Katrina like the Tsunami was an entirely normal if horrendous event.

To try to atribute it to GOD's Wrath is nothing less than Blasphemy.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 293 of 315 (240477)
09-04-2005 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 10:45 PM


Re: Casinos at the waters edge.
I don't think that that would have been a good idea. If you look at the damage done to supersized oil platforms who are anchored to the seafloor, you realize what that would do to a barge. Plenty of ships have been sunk or seriously damaged in the middle of the Atlantic/Pacific from hurricanes.

If they had time perhaps they could have been taken to a port 100's of miles from the expected epicenter of the storm. This would have taken some planing I would think, and it would still entail some danger. Moving a barge still carries risks of swamping or sinking.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-04-2005 10:45 PM Lizard Breath has not yet responded

DBlevins
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 294 of 315 (240478)
09-04-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by jar
09-04-2005 11:51 PM


Re: The Tragedy that Keeps on Taking
It had been predicted by a great number of people IIRC. MR. Bill has an eerily prescient warning.

Prophetic Mr. Bill


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 Message 292 by jar, posted 09-04-2005 11:51 PM jar has not yet responded

dsv
Member (Idle past 3037 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 295 of 315 (240484)
09-05-2005 1:26 AM


Cuba's hurricane response.
Found this interesting:

quote:
Last September, a Category 5 hurricane battered the small island of Cuba with 160-mile-per-hour winds. More than 1.5 million Cubans were evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm. Although the hurricane destroyed 20,000 houses, no one died. What is Cuban President Fidel Castro's secret? According to Dr. Nelson Valdes, a sociology professor at the University of New Mexico, and specialist in Latin America, "the whole civil defense is embedded in the community to begin with. People know ahead of time where they are to go. Cuba's leaders go on TV and take charge," said Valdes... "Merely sticking people in a stadium is unthinkable.. Shelters all have medical personnel, from the neighborhood. They have family doctors in Cuba, who evacuate together with the neighborhood, and already know, for example, who needs insulin." They also evacuate animals and veterinarians, TV sets and refrigerators, "so that people aren't reluctant to leave because people might steal their stuff," Valdes observed.

--http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/printer_090305Y.shtml

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 296 of 315 (240490)
09-05-2005 3:03 AM


Just to correct a few misimpressions.

I have been careful to say that we have no way of knowing anything about God's judgment of individuals, only God does.

God does judge nations and cities, and NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING happens without God's will.

Amos 3:6: ... If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?

Isaiah 45:6 I am the Lord, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

Jer 49:8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time [that] I will visit him.

Jer 49:32 And their camels shall be a booty, and the multitude of their cattle a spoil: and I will scatter into all winds them [that are] in the utmost corners; and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, saith the LORD.

ETC.

I also haven't suggested what might be the provoking causes of the judgment. I'm sure I don't know the half of it. New Orleans has a reputation for various kinds of corruption, but also it was the nation as a whole that was hit, not just the city. 9/11 was also a judgment on the nation as a whole. What was the response? The reiterated demand that "God bless America," not repentance. The right response to judgment warnings is repentance.

However, I believe I also mentioned, and will emphasize now in any case, that I do believe it is the church that is judged first and that has the real responsibility. What this would look like in reality is probably not much like what the person who suggested it has in mind, but nevertheless I agree it is where we must start.

I'm on vacation from EvC for a while. Just dropped in to make this post.


Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1984
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 297 of 315 (240492)
09-05-2005 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
09-05-2005 3:03 AM


absolutely NOTHING happens without God's will.

So why did your God want Hitler to kill 6 million or so Jews?


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 298 of 315 (240493)
09-05-2005 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 10:28 PM


LBs fantasyland camp
Why on earth did you make so many separate replies to me before this one? Especially when they were all the same type and level of response. I will first deal with them all here...

THINK LIZARD BREATH... THINK. Go back and look at your posts and read them and THINK. Not one comment you made actually countered anything I said. In fact everything you wrote merely enhanced the degree of poor judgement and lack of foresight of this administration.

Remember national security, that is the security of this nation, both natural and manmade disasters, are supposedly the top priority of this administration. They had four years to readdress faults in the federal system which could fail to prevent or hinder response to disasters.

And on top of that, they had several hours, if not days, notice that a large hurricane had the potential to hit a swath of southern states. You say they could not predict there'd be flooding, that a breach could occur in a levee, that authorities might not be swamped and so a rise in criminal activity?

Maybe YOU could not predict that. And maybe THEY could not predict that. But when we had that very thing happen to us about ten years ago in the upper Mississippi, and we JUST GOT DONE WATCHING THAT VERY THING HAPPEN IN INDONESIA, I am seriously scratching my head as to what level of ignorance of history or recent events one must have not to be able to predict those possible outcomes.

To add to this, the idea of HS and the entire "national security" concept was pitched by THIS ADMINISTRATION, as being PREEMPTIVE and PROACTIVE. I didn't say it, they did. So even without historical record to go by, someone should have thought to prepare for those possibilities.

I note that you didn't at all deal with the fact that our lack of federal response left that entire area open to very real terrorist attacks. Thankfully they have not occured, but it wouldn't have taken much to send a person or team in to sabotage a levee, or otherwise hinder rescue efforts. It is not just protection against people that become savages in the face of disaster, but those with intent to harm us during a disaster.

Duh.

Now for your latest post...

Tell me how they do it in Granola tye-dyed pony tail flip flop wearin' land.

I can't speak for that. I can tell you though how a rational person with a modicum of education, traditional american values, a respect for the military and civil service professions, likes living in cities, doesn't wear tie-dye, almost always sports a military hair cut, despises many Democrats, supports some Republicans, and doesn't wear flip flops might approach some problem.

Senario - You have 3 mobile field nuclear decon hospital units. Each unit requires 4 C-5A Gallaxy aircraft to transport them into position. They require 36 hours to service prior to transport. They require 12 hours to load and 12 more to unload and then 24 hours to assemble.

Cool I like logic puzzles.

You know that 14 soviet suitcase nukes are in this country and could be used as dirty nukes. There are an additonal 4 modern suitcase nukes produced by islamic labs in pakistan. It is also rummored but with a high degree of certainty that at least one red mercury bomb with a 10 megaton throw weight is in this country.

Wait a second I thought the invasion of Iraq prevented this from happening? And when did Pakistan become a threat? Well I guess if this is the case...

If I were Bush:
I'd invade Syria or Iran and capitulate some more to Pakistan and claim to the American public that as long as nothing detonates it proves I solved the problem.

Oh wait, you were asking about how to position hospital units in preparation for the potential catastrophes...

(that's if I were Bush)

If I were a rationale person:
Given that Galaxy aircraft have a very large range, I might load and remove one or two of the hospitals from the US proper. Most likely Canada and Mexico, but perhaps as far out as Europe or South America. That way one has reserve units that will not potentially be blown to smithereens or otherwise contaminated. The return time would be negligible.

During the load and move I'd have people plotting all potential landing areas, primary and secondary, and if they can do so, crossreferenced to potential targets. If I hadn't done so beforehand (which is really ridiculous), I'd be activating an stashing with (or close to) those units all those who are trained to operate in them.

I would also secretly be requesting aid, preparation of similar equipment, from other friendly nations.

I would station crews and at least three backup crews to keep the planes prepared and ready for immediate deployment 24/7. The backups would be so that one crew does not have to shoulder the burden of waiting 24/7 and get exhausted in the process.

This of course does not mention readying nonmassive units like the ones you are refering to, including supplies of food and medicine and support for local and scattered level response. I'd also be trying to figure out where the nukes are so as to plan for the possibility of multiple sites and staggered detonations (they'd of course realize that staggered detonations would hurt worse than many all at once).

position the 3 units so that they could respond and be set up within 24 hours to respond to a city in need who just befell an attack?

According to your scenario, that is impossible. The best that can reliably be expected, would be 36 hours plus flight time, if one has them preloaded. Unless of course you are not counting loading and uploading at all?

My guess then is that one should (as I have noted) not be counting on these massive units for the very first and immediate response.

Now tell me what a guy with his head shoved up his ass (or is it Bush's ass) would do?

Oh yes, and on top of that that same guy with his head shoved up his ass (or is it Bush's) can explain what this has to do with Katrina? Not only is this BS as it has nothing to do with proper planning for the Hurricane, it is really bizarre as you impres a 24 hour time limit for response. The feds did not respond en masse till how many hours into the crisis? That is in addition to your own admission there wasn't even a call to begin preparations until 12 hours after the hurricane hit, which is many many many hours after knowing the potential for disaster was there.

You can try and switch the subject, but it will come back to the real world eventually. Even staunch Republicans are coming out against the slow Fed response. It really is obvious.

This message has been edited by holmes, 09-05-2005 05:07 AM


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-04-2005 10:28 PM Lizard Breath has responded

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 299 of 315 (240495)
09-05-2005 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Faith
09-05-2005 3:03 AM


Watch this...

I have been careful to say that we have no way of knowing anything about God's judgment of individuals, only God does.

and

I also haven't suggested what might be the provoking causes of the judgment. I'm sure I don't know the half of it.

Yet...

The right response to judgment warnings is repentance.

So you can speak for God?

I do believe it is the church that is judged first and that has the real responsibility.

Well remember all of this came about not after the churches were becoming more liberal, but in the immediate aftermath of rightwing fundies gaining political power, including a man in the presidency. They have been increasingly divisive and intolerant.

Isn't God's point clear then as to where most fundies are errant?

I'm on vacation from EvC for a while.

Wherever you go, make sure to check into reality.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Faith, posted 09-05-2005 3:03 AM Faith has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 315 (240496)
09-05-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Lizard Breath
09-04-2005 9:53 PM


Many times, the people who hate Christianity will plant one of there own in the group as a radical and then try to paint the whole group as a bunch of waccos.

Uh-huh. What's your evidence for this, exactly?

As far as I can tell, your religion is more than capable of coming up with its own wackos. And what indicts the larger Christian community is not that they're expressing agreement with the wackos, because they aren't, of course; it's that they mumble some weak-assed verbal repudiation and then - nothing. No sanctions, nothing.

It's especially hilarious when your real leaders give us a glimpse of their real agenda, like Robertson did the other week. Oh, I know you try to play him off like he's some kind of fringe kook, but that's a pretty hollow statement considering he's one of the three most influential Christians in the nation's public eye, founder of the Christian Coalition - the largest Christian organization in the country - and a man who, indeed, represents Protestant Christendom itself to millions including our president.

You're going to have to wake up about this, LB. The idea that anti-Christians are seeding your religion with kooks is ludicrous on the face of it. These wackos emerge from the seedy underbelly of your own faith, they're completely genuine, and you need to deal with that fact.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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