Atlas Shrugged

Yes, I've read all Rand's major books. Read The Fountainhead next. It was also a movie about 40 years ago, you can probably rent it at BlockBuster, and you can still catch it on TV. I watched it a few years ago after telling my TiVo to pick it up. It took a few months, but it eventually was shown by one of the stations.--Percy

I'm not myself interested in discussing or defending Ayn Rand's economic philosophy, but the characterizations I've seen in this thread thus far hardly seem accurate or fair. I last read Ayn Rand around 20 years ago, and I've thought little about her or her ideas in the interim, so I'm not the right person to be attempting a more accurate characterization of her views, but just to balance things out I'll give it a try.I think Rand promoted the view that people should be the soul possessors of the results of their physical and intellectual labors. The lesson of John Galt is not the pursuit of the ruthless accumulation of wealth at the expense of others, but that the selfish exploitation of other's labors makes us all poorer. Only by people maintaining ownership and control of what they produce can an economy increase in wealth.--Percy

Doesn't seem consistent with Ayn Rand's own words from Introducing Objectivism: Understand, I'm not trying to advocate for or against Ayn Rand, it just didn't seem to me that her views were being fairly represented. Most of what I've seen is a caricature. Dan Carroll just posted some useful links.--Percy

Rand's answer is yes, and it's included in the quote I provided to you: Perhaps you and Dan and others are right, but so far you've only quoted others writing about Rand, while I've quoted Rand herself. I've read five of Rand's books, though not recently, and the views you describe are not consistent with my interpretation of them. What can you provide that would allow me to tell that you're accurately characterizing her views rather than ridiculing them through overextended extrapolation.--Percy

I'm not that interested either, it was only the dichotomy between what I thought her views were and what people were saying her views were that caught my attention. If in everything I read there was a message of careless disregard for your fellow man, I somehow missed it. Whether it was the compassionate pragmatism of Atlas Shrugged or the triumphalism of The Fountainhead and or the stridency of Anthem, no such thing was apparent to me. It sounds more like EST than Rand.My own guess is that opponents are pouncing on expressions like this from the appendix to Atlas Shrugged: Even in the face of such statements, it seems an obviously erroneous overextrapolation to conclude she believed it okay for suicides to not care if anyone else is killed by their actions. If Rand actually accepted and promoted such a philosophy I don't think it would take much work to expose it.--Percy

Oh, God, I hope not, otherwise my employer owns this site's software!The term "work for hire" isn't one I've encountered in my own corner of the software industry. Most of the salaried employees are what is called "at will" employees, which means there's no contract and they can be fired (layed off) without cause at any time.--Percy

I wasn't questioning Crash's definition of "work for hire". I'm not familiar with it and have nothing to go on. I was actually addressing just this: I was only saying that my corner of the software industry doesn't use this term, though perhaps contract workers, as opposed to regular full-time employees, might fit under this category - I have no first-hand experience myself with the hiring of contract workers. Anyway, "work for hire" is not an issue I'm familiar with, but given that I haven't seen the term before hints to me that it isn't a significant issue in the software industry. I'm not claiming any actual knowledge about this, but I did find this brief comment at The Question of Work for Hire: "I Paid for It. Why Isn’t It Mine?" | Expert Commentary | IRMI.com : Given the rapidity with which workers are hired and fired in this industry, there is little loyalty between employers and employees in either direction these days, and any attempts by a company to claim ownership of software an employee writes in his free time would, I think, strike most as highly unusual and very newsworthy.--PercyThis message has been edited by Percy, 02-18-2005 10:03 AM

Well stated. Aren't you making the same mistake as Rand, i.e., claiming that people should be compensated in amounts other than those set by the marketplace? Or perhaps you've shifted from an anti-Rand argument to an anti-capitalism one. One way of looking at the two arguments is that yours is socialism while Rand's is reverse socialism, and neither has much to do with capitalism or free markets.--Percy

I wasn't trying to begin a discussion about the merits of different economic systems. I was just wondering if you realized you were being no more consistent with free markets than Rand, and apparently you did.--Percy

Not to the aristocrat, a largely hereditary status, but to a self-defining class of people characterized by their energy, ambition, creativity and achievements.--Percy

If we're talking about western style capitalism, then *I* don't think so. Naturally Rand would disagree. For example, I think she might critisize today's venture capitalists as leeches sucking the lifeblood from entrepreneurs. She'd probably argue that VC's should feel honored to support the ventures of those with good ideas and so should not take ownership positions in those enterprises but only charge a modest interest rate for the privilege of providing funding.But my only reason for participating in this thread was to question what appeared to be misleading characterizations of Rand's philosophy, which I don't believe is, as Dan so concisely put it, that it's okay to hit nuns with puppies.--Percy

You're describing the reality, not "the claim the aristocrat advances." Kings especially make every effort to hide humble origins. The aristocrat with his sense of inherited entitlement does not seem consistent with Rand. Heroic culture seems much closer to the mark.--Percy

I agree with this. It's probably not relevant to the topic whether kings actually emphasized being self-made men or their status of inherited entitlement.--Percy

My interest in this thread stemmed only from my perception that her views weren't being accurately represented. I agreed with your last characterization, but my interest doesn't extend to accurately tracing the historical origins of her views.--Percy