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Author Topic:   Atlas Shrugged
custard
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 117 (187878)
02-23-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by portmaster1000
02-14-2005 3:16 PM


Thoughts
It's been a while since I read Atlas Shrugged, but I remember I found it very thought provoking. It's not a surprise that people who lean to the left politically find this book, and her other works, to have little merit.
I'm not sure I agree that one of the themes was 'Capitalism is better than Socialism;' rather that individual achievement should not be stifled by government.
I definitely caught a whiff of Nietzsche's concept of 'will to power' in it. Dynamic individuals are kept from rising to their ultimate heights by the jealous masses; the need to conform, to be mediocre is for the betterment of society as a whole because the individual who stands out makes everyone else who can't, or won't, look bad.
In that regard it reminds me of Brave New World. Rand certainly seems a proponent of the unregulated free market, but I didn't see her extolling the virtues of capitalism qua consumerism.
It's interesting how some posters here view free market capitalism as though it is some evil sentient entity that goes out of its way to enrich amoral money grubbers by trodding on the backs of the enslaved workers. I certainly don't remember this theme in Atlas Shrugged; but, as I said, it has been a while since I read it.
This message has been edited by custard, 02-23-2005 18:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by portmaster1000, posted 02-14-2005 3:16 PM portmaster1000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 02-23-2005 6:55 PM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 117 (187906)
02-23-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by crashfrog
02-23-2005 6:55 PM


I'll take that bet
quote:
Capitalism isn't, but people are, and free-market capitalism lets them do that. Capitalism rewards those who can gain the most while providing the least; the end state of that is of course kleptocracy, where the elite gain wealth without having to provide anything at all.
  —crashfrog
Interesting opinion.
But do you think an economic model exists that does not ultimately result in the kleptocracy you describe? I'll wager my David Ricardo action figure with the Adam Smith Invisible Hand grip if you can think of one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by crashfrog, posted 02-23-2005 6:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 02-23-2005 11:08 PM custard has replied
 Message 92 by contracycle, posted 02-24-2005 4:24 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 117 (187969)
02-23-2005 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
02-23-2005 11:08 PM


straying off topic but
quote:
Can't think of a one; but then, I'm no economist.
Neither can I. I don't think an economic model exists, or will ever exist, that is better than a free market with just enough regulation to encourage maximum competition. But if you want to debate economic systems, I'm willing to do so in another thread.
I don't see capitalism or any other economic system as inherently evil, and I don't think Atlas Shrugged is proposing that capitalism is the salvation of man either. I think Atlas Shrugged was an effort to point out that society tries to shackle greatness in the individual by forcing him to conform.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 02-23-2005 11:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2005 1:47 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 117 (188021)
02-24-2005 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by crashfrog
02-24-2005 1:47 AM


Reading is Fundamental
frog writes:
Seems like an awful long book for a moral I could have gotten from Saturday afternoon specials.
Well, you gotta stick with your strengths I suppose.
Actually there is more than one theme in the book, but I'm guessing you never read this one either, eh?
Shouldn't one usually have some sort of familiarity with the subject matter one is attempting to criticize? Just a thought.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2005 1:47 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 117 (188030)
02-24-2005 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by contracycle
02-24-2005 4:24 AM


No doll for you
contracycle writes:
Yes - barter between direct producers in a local context.
Sorry, I keep my David Ricardo doll, but it is interesting to see this type of transaction is actually increasing through sites like Craig's list, etc.
The big problem with a strict barter system, and the reason it was immediately abandoned once people realized how convenient currency was, is that it starts to break down when I don't have a product or service of value to the person I want to trade with.
I'm not going to find too many grocers who need new software platforms when it comes time to do the food shopping, so what do I do now?
I guess I can go work for Joe who needs a new software for his paper company and take payment from him in reams of paper in hopes that I can trade those for something else the grocer needs?
Talk about a royal pain in the ass.
Note how completely different this is to the idea that a suitabole [sic]price is "as much as you can get".
Is that what you guys think capitalism is? Trying to get as much as you can get? It isn't. The market determines the value of goods and services, not just the seller - there also has to be demand for the seller's product.
The buyer and seller negotiate to come up with a price that is acceptable to each of them. If either one of them doesn't like the terms of the exchange, it doesn't happen.
Where free market capitalism breaks down is when there is collusion and monopolies - which is exactly why there are controls in place to prevent that from occurring and to promote as much competition as possible.
More competition = better prices/quality for goods and services for the consumer.
Come on guys, this is Econ 101.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by contracycle, posted 02-24-2005 4:24 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 117 (188031)
02-24-2005 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by contracycle
02-24-2005 4:24 AM


Re: I'll take that bet
contra writes:
What Crash describes as kleptocracy is a necessarily emergent property of Capitalism, and it arises oprecisely becuase capitalism is not an economic system qua economic system, but a political-economic system for the maintanance of class rule.
What the heck does Crash know? He already admitted in this thread he doesn't know much about economics.
And I'm sorry to knock you off your Worker's Unite! soapbox, but capitalism is NOT a political system.
Capitalism is:
quote:
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
Economic system <> political system. Economic systems are not inherently good or evil, they simply are.
And I hate to break it to you, but EVERY political system exists to maintain class rule. It's just that individuals have more opportunity to move from one class to another depending on the system.
This message has been edited by custard, 02-24-2005 05:00 AM
This message has been edited by custard, 02-24-2005 05:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by contracycle, posted 02-24-2005 4:24 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 117 (188259)
02-24-2005 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by AdminPhat
02-24-2005 11:06 AM


Re: Ayn Rands book! Not Economics!
Lets limit this one to Ayn Rand, everyone!
Works for me since I actually read the novel.
I still contend that the overriding theme of the novel is not one economic system vs. another economic system, but something more along the lines of Nietzsche's "Will to Power" concept.
Atlas Shrugged's overriding theme is that the John Galts of society are being held back by the masses of people who have neither the talent nor inclination to achieve greatness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by AdminPhat, posted 02-24-2005 11:06 AM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by contracycle, posted 02-25-2005 5:41 AM custard has replied
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 02-25-2005 8:58 AM custard has replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 117 (188394)
02-25-2005 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by contracycle
02-25-2005 5:41 AM


Re: Ayn Rands book! Not Economics!
It is a paean to the romance of the aristocrat - indeed, to a superior CLASS of people.
I couldn't disagree more, it is, in fact, quite the opposite (as I have stated).
The ubermensch concept isn't what she is touting in this novel. And pretty much anyone who has read Neitzche or taken philosophy 101 knows that Hitler's ideas are a pathetic corruption of Neitzche's ideas.
The fact that you'd even associate the two, and then throw Rand into the mix, demonstrates either severe bias or sheer ignorance on your part - or both since I suppose they aren't mutually exclusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by contracycle, posted 02-25-2005 5:41 AM contracycle has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 117 (188436)
02-25-2005 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Chiroptera
02-25-2005 8:58 AM


Re: Ayn Rands book! Not Economics!
chiro writes:
I read a story once where alien conquerors used humans as incubators for their eggs. A serious problem, but I wouldn't base a philosophy on it.
Why not? You could even base your own religion on it like L. Ron Hubbard.
But are the John Galts of society really being held back by the masses of people who neither have the talent or inclination to achieve greatness?
What does "being held back" mean, anyway?
Well, in the book, the male protagonist is this dynamic industrialist who discovers a way to create better, stronger steel which can be used by the railroad etc.
The consortium of other steel producers and railroad magnates tried everything they could to prevent him from producing this new product because they argued, basically, that it would put the owners of the other outdated and poorly run steel plant out of business.
They used all their clout, monetary, political, to try to force the protagonist to keep producing the same poorer quality steel that the other plants produced 'for the good of everyone. That's what I mean by 'being held back.'
It's basically the sacrifice of the individual to maintain the status quo of society. That's why all the John Galts were basically faced with the choice of either bowing to the will of the masses by refusing to outperform or outproduce their peers, or removing themselves from society altogether.

This message is a reply to:
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custard
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 117 (188438)
02-25-2005 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Percy
02-25-2005 9:14 AM


Re: Ayn Rands book! Not Economics!
percy writes:
Naturally Rand would disagree. For example, I think she might critisize today's venture capitalists as leeches sucking the lifeblood from entrepreneurs. She'd probably argue that VC's should feel honored to support the ventures of those with good ideas and so should not take ownership positions in those enterprises but only charge a modest interest rate for the privilege of providing funding.
Yeah, spot on man. She probably would do just that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Percy, posted 02-25-2005 9:14 AM Percy has not replied

  
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