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Author Topic:   Evolution, no solution!
SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 55 (125429)
07-18-2004 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nasa
07-18-2004 9:44 AM


Or...
It could be just be overpopulation due to the longevity of man through disease cures has simply upset the natural balance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Nasa, posted 07-18-2004 9:44 AM Nasa has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 47 of 55 (125430)
07-18-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nasa
07-18-2004 9:44 AM


Nasa,
New super bugs (mutant viruses) are a prime example of this, loss of information causing death. Developed at the over use of Penicillin.
Perhaps you mean bacteria? Virus are unaffected by penicillin under any circumstances. That's why you aren't prescribed antibiotics for flu.
Why does a bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics incur a loss of information rather than a gain?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 48 of 55 (125431)
07-18-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nasa
07-18-2004 9:44 AM


Nasa writes:
Genetic load, is the loss of information.......The increase in mutations causing death.
From this site's glossary:
Genetic load: The loss in average fitness of individuals in a population because the population carries deleterious alleles or genotypes. (See also Balanced Genetic Load, Mutational Load.)
Mutation: A change in the nucleotide sequence of genetic material whether by substitution, duplication, insertion, deletion, or inversion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 49 of 55 (125439)
07-18-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nasa
07-18-2004 9:44 AM


First question, Do you believe the bible?
No. It is a book of stories and myths with a smattering of interesting philosophy and intelectual musings. Little else than that.
Next, the cycle you talk about (Death) animals eating one another, was not present in the Begining. - Genesis.
Seed fruits and grass, many of which types have been lost, was the soure of food.
I would fill this page with LOL's if I could. Don't you realize how rediculous this statement is?
Lets put it like this, do you know how digestion works?
Well, mainly all stomachs are fermentation chambers where certain kinds of bacteria live. Now bacteria are so small that their digestive processes work on the molecular level using enzymes to break down the bonds in food and thereby seperating the 'wheet from the chaff'. When you eat a steak these backteria break down the meat into its basic components, i.e. protein etc. Problem is only certain types of bacteria have the apropriate enzymes for various types of food, furthermore some animals stomachs will only support some kinds and not others.
You ever heard of corn-fed cattle? Well corn is cheep, but cows cant digest the stuff cuz they don't have the proper enzymes in their gut. So farmers forcefeed them bacterial soup so they can digest it. Unfortunetly the cows body rejects these new bacteria and they need to be refed the stuff once a month or so. This is actually a very crewl and barbaric reality of cattle farming.
Lactos intolerance, and farting after eating beans comes from the same issue. Some people lack the enzymes to digest certain things.
Suggesting that Lions subsisted on fruits and vegetables is as assinine as saying cows subsisted on meet. The two creatures are simply incapable of living off such diets.
Another issue, animals digestive systems and metabolisims are well suited to certain types of food. One reason a cow does so well eating the relitively nutrieant poor grass, is because of his metabolisim and his adaptation called the rumen.
A cows metabolisim is slow, meaning it dosn't burn up as much energy as other creatures, this allows it to stand arownd and eat ALOT. All this grass and stuff sits in the cows stomach for a long time, breaking down and fermenting. The body sucking out every last drop of nutrition from the plant matter. The rumen is a sort of gizard that stores food and regurgitates it into the mouth for a second chewing.
Again, this is to suck out all the nutrition. The four chanbers of the cows stomach are similarly adapted, each thuroughly digesting the stuff, over and, over and, over. Thats how the cow can subsist on grass.
A lion on the other hand, is an animal clearly adapted to hunting. Hes got sharp teeth, a powerfull jaw, grasping claws, and a fast metabolisim. A lion burns up tons of energy in a day. So much energy that he would litteraly starve even if he HAD the capacity to eat grass.
In order to keep this energy up, the lion needs to make a kill, and gourge himself on pounds of animal meat. Full of proteins and nutritious fat, and tons of calories. All this the lion stores as reserves till he makes the next kill.
It is because of this that lions lead such an active life, they are on the prowl all night and afternoon, resting much in the day to conserve energy
What does this have to do with genesis?
Esentialy, why the hell do lions have the mouths of carnivors and couldn't eat fruits and veggies even if they wanted to?
Why are cows digestive systems so suited to eat grass, and only grass, and lions aren't?
I mean, if animals that eat grass need such a special digestive system, how come carnivors don't have it?
Are you suggesting that lions had such a digestive system before the fall, and then miraculously lost it?
If there was no death, then what do you call killing the fruits and plants everyone was eating?
If a fruit fell from the trees in those days, it wouldn't rot and release its seeds? How did plants reproduce? You do know that the other junk has to either be eaten or rot away for the seeds to come out.
Another point, if there was no decay. How the hell did animals digest ANYTHING! After all, the bacteria couldent effectively digest the stuff, 'no rotting', so then nothing would be able to eat. Why do you think farts stink? It's cuz stuff is rotting in there! Thats what fermentation and digestion is.
Are you an evolutionist....?
What is that?
Genetic load, is the loss of information.......The increase in mutations causing death.
Oh really, do you have any secondary sources speaking on this subject?
New super bugs (mutant viruses) are a prime example of this, loss of information causing death. Developed at the over use of Penicillin.
Huh? Penicillin isn't for viruses it's an anti-biotic. Its used for bacteriological infections. Virus and/or bacterial mutation is a prime example of evolution, not loss of information.
Ask Rhain about the T4 phage.
The target protein within the virus, that penicillin would attack and cause a poisonous reaction within the virus has been killed off.
Could you please site this article.
Furthermore, why do you think doctors are very stingy with antibiotics? They don't want to build up an immunity in your body. What is this immunity you ask?
*drum roll*
Evolution acted upon by natural selection!
The evil bacteria start changing and evolving in this new poisenus environment. As a result, only those resistent begin surviving. Before long your body is overrun with resistant bacteria! Evolution at work my friend.
Life was once perfect, in the sense that perfection once dwelt with it. The energy, -the life radiating from the Lord would not allow death, or decay.
So we couldnt digest anything.
BTW, do you know what topsoil is mostly made of? Organic, decaying matter. That's right, plants, flowers, grass, all need tons of nutrient rich rotting stuff in order to live. Top soil is nothing more than the mushy remains of plant debis, animal poop, and dead things.
So how did plants live without decay?
Try look around you again, quite literally at morality.
Morality is an intangible concept.
The weather....Sun spots, causing great concern amoung many.
Why? They happen all the time, sometimes they disrupt radio signals. Big deal.
The sun just might not be that believed age.......Runing out fast.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA! cute.
Earthquakes at their highest recorded levels (worldwide) in power and frequency.
Hmmm... thats odd, as I understand it they have been happening at around the same rate for thousands of years. Do you have any data proving your statement?
Wild fires, floods, famine and desease.....An estimated 5 - 20 million peolpe die from starvation due to freak weather patterns every year.
Again, show me the data.
Topsoil loss, Trees....
Thats mostly due to stupid humans, greedy presidents, and poor people trying to make a quick buck.
The extintion of aninamls at highest recorded levels.
Mans fault again.
Good luck!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Nasa, posted 07-18-2004 9:44 AM Nasa has not replied

Glordag
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 55 (125456)
07-18-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Nasa
07-16-2004 11:10 PM


Amusing...
quote:
We see all around us the opposite to evolution occurring. DECAY, for the reason of sin entering in to the physical existence. Everything is dying, the universe, or planet, the sun, every thing is heading toward disorder......Ourselves included, quite true, look around...
Bob: "So, Jack, how is your son doing nowadays?"
Jack: "Well, Bob, it's the darndest thing. One day he just started decaying! I -have- heard that everything is dying, though. We live in a crazy world..."
Heh...in reply to the whole universe, planet, and sun thing:
1. Our sun is actually heading towards a more orderly system, I would say. It is simply unfortunate for us that the end result of this system happens to be our doom . Of course, that's millions of years from now anyways, I believe, so what does it matter?
2. How exactly is our universe or planet heading towards disorder? If I remember correctly, the current belief in the scientific community (and you'll either have to trust me on this one or do some research on various cosmological topics) is that that universe is in a perpetual state of expanding outward and then contracting inward upon itself. How much more orderly can you get than a perpetual system? Furthermore, I fail to see how our planet is heading towards disorder.
Everything follows a system. Sometimes this system may be orderly, sometimes it may be disorderly. The fact is, "orderly" can be pretty relative, which explains why you choose to belief EVERYTHING is heading towards a disorderly state.
More importantly, this has jack to do with evolution. Evolution can be supported with evidence and has been accepted as science in the community just as much as any other scientific principle. If you cannot accept this, then it merely demonstrates a closed-minded bias to the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Nasa, posted 07-16-2004 11:10 PM Nasa has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by SRO2, posted 07-18-2004 4:53 PM Glordag has not replied

SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 55 (125489)
07-18-2004 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Glordag
07-18-2004 1:00 PM


Re: Amusing...
WHAT!?! I only have a few million years left!?! Dang it! I had plans!....
Since I pity "nasa", and I'm such a generous and caring Atheist, I shall help "nasa" out;
Nasa;
What you really need to do is give up on attempting to prove creationism by attempting to disprove evolution. First of all, creationism couldn't be proven BEFORE evolution came along. So evolution is neither here nor there relative to an argument.
Secondly, you don't need to give up creationism to succumb to the facts of evolution. Many christians accept the theory based on the facts provided along WITH the possibilty of creationism, in fact the two have NEVER even been proven to be in conflict with each other (you will see why below).
Thirdly,Fundamentalists only have an axe to grind with evolution simply because it appears that it conflicts with the literal writings of Genesis. Most agree, Genesis simply can't be taken literally without it being just another fairy tale...Genesis and the old testament are probably full of metaphores for other things for the sole reason that that is what makes it timeless (to an extent, you can only take a metaphore so far).
Rocket

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 07-18-2004 6:01 PM SRO2 has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 52 of 55 (125498)
07-18-2004 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by SRO2
07-18-2004 4:53 PM


Full Forum Access Restored
Hi Rocket,
Thanks for making the moderator's job easy. I've restored your access privileges to all public forums.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by SRO2, posted 07-18-2004 4:53 PM SRO2 has replied

Replies to this message:
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SRO2 
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 55 (125516)
07-18-2004 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Admin
07-18-2004 6:01 PM


Re: Full Forum Access Restored
Thank you Percy. You too are a kind and generous person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Admin, posted 07-18-2004 6:01 PM Admin has not replied

gman
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 55 (143951)
09-22-2004 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Nasa
07-18-2004 9:44 AM


Nasa - "Genetic load, is the loss of information.......The increase in mutations causing death."
I'm not very well versed on the subject, but I've heard of genetic load before and I'm pretty sure it's not a loss of genetic information.
Here's my basic understanding of the concept. Anybody correct me if I am off. Genetic load (also called genetic burden) is the total number of recessive lethal genes that a species tends to carry.
Imagine I have the genes Xx. (little x recessive) x mutates so it is less fit. Now xx will cause some bad thing like down syndrome. I pass x on to some of my kids. They pass it on to their kids. At first it can only cause down syndrome if we mate with close relatives, since they are the only ones with x. But as more time passes, the x gene permeates more and more of society making it an increasingly more common problem.
I don't think there is much research on the topic yet, but it is being researched by the NHGRI.
Here's a web site about animals that has a little info. on it.
Netpets.com
As to its implications for creation vs evolution, the theory goes that since these genes damaged by mutations are recessive, survival of the fittest will have a minimal impact on them, so the whole species will tend to have an increased genetic load over time. For every good mutation it would already have an overwhelming number of recessive bad mutations. In other words - De-evolution would happen faster than any evolution could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Nasa, posted 07-18-2004 9:44 AM Nasa has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 55 of 55 (143958)
09-22-2004 8:52 PM


Mess, and in the wrong forum - Closing
I'm at a loss, on why this topic wasn't shut down on its first day back in July.
Closing now.
Adminnemooseus

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