When Adam met Eve

So, specifically, how did the animals "suffer"?(Remember, you claimed that all the animals were "cursed", not just the ones which became extinct - and not all extinctions can be blamed on man.)

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When is that last time you saw Gorillas commit genocide using gas chambers, forced sterilizations, Concentration camps, and forcing young children and babies alive into burning ovens? Did a Poodle invent the Hydrogen Bomb? Are there Tigers in the KKK? Did a Elephant gas the Kurds? Was "Socks" Clinton invovled with Monica Lewinsky in a sex scandal? Was Jim Jones a Marmoset? It is about what the word Meant, then yes. Which led to God giving them the Old Testament version of an eviction notice LOL. THey had to work far harder, and birth would be far worse than originally intended. The was a FALL from a perfect home. The official name of "Hawaii" is (BIG surprise)...... "Hawaii". Yet people have said that it is a "Paradise" because it is so beautiful. Oh, I better tell the 2.2 Billion Christians in the world and let them know that Christianity and all it's thousands upon thousands of believers who believe what the Bible says that the Fall didn't happen, Because Ringo said so! It must be true becasue Ringo said soRingo is omniscient! Let us all bow down to Ringo, God of counter Bible skepticism! HO YAH HO YEAH HO HA HO YEAH! Bring the virgins for the sacrifice!!!!! What you think it means?This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-28-2006 06:57 PM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Actually, whil we where discussing this, I think you made the claim that the Fall didn't happen. When I used Bible and historical evidence that the "Fall" is what is desrcibed in Genesis 3, you started asking for Paleontological evidence LOL.I believe you made the claim first. You have to back it up. Hmm, some hope after all.... Who says a real story can have any meaning? The Holocaust happened, and a good moral learned from it is to resist ferocious hate that leads to such evil crimes, among other lessons.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

They suffered along with man when man made stupid mistakes (see "The Flood" In Genesis 6-9)Cases of animal cruelty throuhgout history.extinctions. How many animal species comes to mind that went extinct just on their own in the past 10,000 years? What about in the last 6,000 years? Would they rival the number of animals that man has killed off during his long history? How many species of animals are endangered today thanks to human beings?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

What's your point? No, it isn't about the word "nakedness" or about what the word meant. it's about the notion that they didn't notice that they were naked. How can you take that literally? Nope. It wasn't an event. Genesis 3 is an explanation of why we have to work hard, why women suffer in childbirth, etc. There is no indication of a change from an "intended" state. The only change recorded is that they became smarter. That's not a "fall". And everybody knows that Hawaii isn't literally "Paradise". The Fallists try to pretend that the Garden of Eden was Paradise. It is important to keep the distinction that it was just a garden. There you go again. It is not "all" Christians who believe in "the Fall". If you open your eyes, you'll find quite a lot of Christians right here on this forum who don't believe in "the Fall". If you open your eyes even further, you'll find that I am not the god of "counter-Bible skepticism" - I'm the god of dogma-blasting. If the fictitious "Fall" was such a rock-solid Christian dogma doctrine, you should be able to back it up Biblically instead of resorting to childish insults.

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I was countering your claim that "the Fall" did happen. You brought it up, so it's still your claim and you're the one who needs to back it up (though this topic is probably not the place for it).I asked for paleontological evidence because you need that too if you want to prove that "the Fall" was a real event. Sure, a real event can teach us lessons. My point is that fictitious events, such as in Genesis, can also teach us lessons.

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Did you miss the word "specifically"? You describe a huge, catastrophic "Fall", in which all animals were "cursed". Then all you can come up with is "cases" of animal cruelty and "extinctions"?All animals have not been treated cruelly. All animals have not become extinct. Let's hear about the curse on all animals. (And specifically, please. ) Who's talking about 10,000 years? Bean-counting is irrelevant. You said that all animals were cursed by "the Fall". Please list all of them and show the effects of "the fall" on all of them. Cockroaches and rats seem to be doing quite well. Care to explain how they were "cursed"?

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In your post (post 44) it hinted that you found it odd that having adam and eve going from "Just like animals" to humans was a fall,as if humans are better than animals in some way. Although humans where made in the image of God (Gen 1:27)and are loved more than animals (Matt 6:26)animals dont cause the kind of misery and disaster than humans have caused. In that sense, they are better than humans. So God is too weak to make it to where a person cannot notice another person's nakedness even though that person is naked? When did God become weak? What time machine did you use to go back in time and prove this? Why cant it be an explanation and a real event? It is A paradise. Not all Christians accept the Old Testament (Modern day Gnostics)Nor believe in the Trinity (Some Pentacostals) yet by and large the Church has kept to both, and also the Fall.BTW: what demonination do you follow? "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one decieved; it was the woman who was decieved and became a sinner" 1 Tim 2:13-14.Seems the Bible takes the more literal apporach here.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

First off, Adam and Eve and the whole Garden of Eden story does not even appear in the later creation myth found in Genesis 1. The GOD depicted in the earlier myth, the one found in Genesis 2 & 3 is entirely different than the one found in the later story, the story found in Genesis 1.The story found in Genesis 1 is a far more sophisticated tale than what is found in the earlier story. It was likely created hundreds if not thousands of years later than the story in Genesis 2 & 3. In Genesis 1 we find a competent, efficient GOD who creates male and female at the same time and by the same methods, who is satisfied with his work and with what was produced. There is no hint of the earlier myth where God is a more human construct little different than what He creates, or of the Garden of Eden or the serpent or magic trees or fruits.Two different stories, from two different peoples living in two different eras.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not sure if I said "The Fall Did happen" word for word, though asking me to prove it is like asking me to prove that Balaam's donkey talked or Moses' body was the source of an argument between the archangel Michael and Satan (Jude 9)Is the "Paleontological" evidence you are asking about have something to do with the Vegan diet that humans and animals where given by God in Genesis 1:29-30? Well, I "give" my Dog regular dog food and some special treats for his food, yet I have seen him on occasion eat Crickets. I didn't him Crickets for food, yet he ate them. And Since this vegan diet wasn't proclaimed until after man was created (Genesis 1:26-30) and Adam and Eve didn't seem to live very long in the Garden (Genesis 2 and 3)it is very likely that the vegan diet didn't last long for the animals of the world (If not just for those in the Garden. Sometimes when the Bible talks about things in seemingly "Global" language, it really means a region (see Luke 2:1) Although humans where not allowed to Eat meat until after the flood (Genesis 9:2-3) you'll notice that animals where never given by God the right to eat meat as well, probably because they already could. Like we didn't know that already, ie Aesop's Fables? My point was that real events can teach us lessons as well. And you have not proven that anything in Genesis is ficticious.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Hey Jar Hold on a sec, I'll discuss this with you in a moment. I'm not done trashing it out with Ringo. LOL

I've already dealt with several of the reasons of why animals where cursed and what the curse consisted of. When I showed that not all curses involve physical change, I was hinting that the curse could be more of an inner curse thatn an outer curse, which is partially hinted to in Romans 8:19-22. And if all the animals of the world where suddenly made vegetarian when God gave the vegan decree (LOL) and didn't have to worry about predators, and then have it snatched away by man's stupidity, well then that would be a curse. Dont compare animals with beans. they are worth a lot more than that. And are the target of rat poison and bug exterminators.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Too Jar: are you reffering to the documentary Hypothesis (JEDP)? I've heared of this before. I Have several books that talk about it at home. Robert Alter talks a little about it in his Pentateuch translation, but there is so much other good stuff in his translation that I haven't got around to reading that are yet. Gordon Wenham in his Pentateuch translation goes in depth on the documentary hypothesis ("Exploring the Old Testament: a guide to the Pentateuch" if you are interested.)Dont have much time to start a discussion on this, though It would be a treat to discuss it with you and Arachnophilia.BTW: I had a one on one debate idea about the Nephilim in the Proposed topics area. Go see if you want to join

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I'm going to bring everything into one reply here, to minimize the confusion. In Message 53, It's not about God being "weak". It's about how utterly stupid Adam and Eve would have been to not notice that they were naked. Sure, God could have made them that utterly stupid, but why would He?Why not look at the story and come up with an interpretation that makes sense? Don't need no time machine. Just look at the Bible and look at the physical evidence. Since there is no evidence anywhere that an "event" happened, there is no justification for the claim that the "event" happened. It could be. But until there is some evidence that it was a real event, we can not reasonably assume that it was. "By and large" the Church used to hold to slavery, witch-burning, geocentrism.... Past errors are no excuse. What does that have to do with the discussion? The Bible itself can not "take a more literal approach". Our interpretation can be literal or non-literal. I'm trying to figure out why an idiotic idea like "invisible nakedness" should be taken literally.-------------Moving on to Message 55, Exactly. And if you can't provide evidence for any of those "events", then you can't expect me to automatically accept them as real events. In the complete absence of any evidence, you should at least be willing to entertain the possibility of a non-literal interpretation. I'm not even going to go there. There's a whole thread on that no-death-before-the-Fall crap.

1. The whole human race descended from one couple? Impossible. Therefore fictitious.
2. The Flood? Impossible. Therefore fictitious.
3. The whole human race descended from four couples after the Flood? Impossible. Therefore fictitious.
4. Every animal species descended from two individuals after the Flood? Impossible. Therefore fictitious.

There are numerous threads on all of those topics.-------------On to Message 57. The issue here is whether or not all of the animals were "cursed". You have not dealt with all of them. Or would you like to amend the "curse" to only some of the animals? (By the way, for the sake of those readers who don't have a Bible handy, could you quote verses instead of just citing them? )

quote:

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Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

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The word "creature" there would seem to refer to man.So, what kind of "inner curse" on the animals did you have in mind?

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Why would God spare Moses' life when Zipporah rubbed Moses' feet with their son's bloody foreskin(Exodus 4:24-26)? God acts pretty mysterious, and when there is no answer to find, it falls under Deuteronomy 29:29 which states that the seceret things Belong to the Lord. Well, it wont make sense to those who cant concieve the supernatural and the power of God. Slavery and the killing of witches are allowed in the Pentateuch (Exodus 21:1-11,22:18)Though Christians didn't nessesarily follow the whole of Pentateuch law (Galatians 5:1-3, see als Romans 7:4, where it says that Christians have "died to the Law")as for geocentrism, the Bible is not a science book. The ancients did make that mistake, though who doesn't make mistakes? And just because they where wrong on somethings doesn't mean they where wrong on all things. It shows that the Bible refers to Adam and Eve are real humans beings, not as allegorical representations for the whole of humanity. Not if you have Faith. Who said there was no death before the fall? I guess you forgot the passage in the good book where it says "With God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26)? Are you talking about a global flood or a Local flood? local floods are pretty much possible (New Orleans was flooded by Hurricane KAtrina.) But even a Global flood is not impossible for God to do (see passage quoted above) I'll give you no evidence for a global flood is at this time present (at least not yet) but a local flood is not out of the picture. Who said every animal species descended from animals in the Ark? If it was a local flood, then two of every animal species from around the world would not be necessary. Would you quote from a much better and more moldern translation than the kjv?"For we know that the whole Creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now"I'll be back.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-29-2006 11:14 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4