When Adam met Eve

I've looked in the Bible for all of my life (i'm nearly 25 now)and I dont see any evidence for your claims. And physical evidence for two ancient humans being expelled from a Garden. Boy, that should show up in the Fossil record like the great dying at the end of the Permian extinction LOL.Funny, what you said is similar to what young Earth Creationists say. "Just look at the Bible and the Physical evidence!" Your not related to Ken ham are yah? I think you are meaning every individual animal, eh? Well, not every animal individual has ever seen a human, let alone felt their wrath. But Then again pretty much almost every species of animal on Earth has been affected by man, and where man goes, many animals seem to dissappear. And now with humans making greenhouse gases and pollution, all animal species of the world are beginning to be effected by global warming, courtesy of human beings. And lets not forget the terrible burden that came upon animals after the flood:Man was allowed to eat them (Genesis 9:1-3)This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 04-29-2006 11:27 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I'm probably going to end participating in this debate and focus on anotrher one that I am planning (that is if I get and takers) I'll signal when I do.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

If I leave this thread, does anybody want to continue this with Ringo? Maybe Jar or Buzzsaw? Maybe Faith?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

In Message 60, "The Lord acts in mysterious ways" should not be used as the universal cop-out. Even if you've been fed a story all your life, even if the people who feed it to you seem reputable, nonsense is still nonsense. Don't blame nonsense on God just because you haven't found a sensible answer. Not at all. What's "real" about Adam being formed first and then Eve? We know that biology doesn't work that way. That alone should be a what's-your-first-clue moment.

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Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

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Faith is for things that are not seen. It is not an excuse for closing your eyes to what can be seen. So you're going to use the "Goddidit" cop-out for everything? What's the point of science if we're not allowed to look at an elephant and say, "That can't fly"? Ludo pipes up, "God can make an elephant fly."Sure, and God can erase all the evidence after the fact, too. But why would He deceive us?

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Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

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Every living substance outside the ark was destroyed.If you're going to take everything else so literally, why do you suddenly un-literalize the Flood? I'm used to the KJV, so I know what phrases to search for - "every living substance", "the evidence of things not seen", etc. If you have issues with the KJV, you can take them up in another thread. -------------On to Message 62: It doesn't have to be fossil evidence. Come up with any evidence that the whole human race is descended from two individuals. No. The YECs say, "Just look at the Bible and ignore the physical evidence." That's pretty much what you're saying - except that you're willing to ignore some parts of the Bible too, like the worldwide Flood.(I'm giving up on the whole issue of whether or not all animals were effected by "the Fall". You don't seem able to come to grips with the meaning of the word "all". )-------------If we can look back in the direction of the topic:My main point has been that Adam and Eve not knowing that they were naked is utterly ludicrous on the face of it. That alone should prompt us to ask, "What is this story about?" instead of taking a silly literal interpretation.Suppose we don't check our brains at the door. Suppose we temporarily forget the propaganda that we have been fed and try to come up with an answer of our own. What would be a sensible interpretation of the when-Adam-met-Eve story?Edit: fixxed spellin.This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-04-29 10:57 AM

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Ones nonsense is another's belief. I could call the idea that everything we see and hear caome from no God as Nonsense, yet that is a belief of some, and to them it isn't nonsense. Um, I hate to break it to you but THe Bible is not a Biology book It's full of what we call "Miraculous events" and the "supernatural" which are beyond the abilities of science to study directly. I thought you would know this. Well the Bible tells of an omnhipotent Being called God who is all powerful. I'm basing this on a theological response. You try to counter with science mixes two beasts that for most purposes should never be mixed.Which brings me to... To study how things go, i rekon. Though trying to counter Biblical stories with science is impossible, since it is a clollection of supernatural accounts and was written for religious purposes, not scientific ones. Hmm, so I guess the Roman empire extended to all of Africa, Asia, North America, South America, Antartica, and all the rest of europe (Luke 2:1)? Notice:"In those days a decree went out from Ceasar Augustus That all the world should be registered" Luke 2:1.Where Australian Aborigines forced to pay taxes to Rome? What about the Chinese? Native Americans?Daniel 2:37-38 : "You, o King (Nebuchadnezzar. See beginning of chapter 2)the King of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory,and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all-You are the head of Gold."Did Nebuchadnezzar's empire stretch all over africa, North America, Australia, Asia? Did Nebuchadnezzar's troops ever patrol australia? Did he rule over the Aborigenes of australia, or the pygmies of Africa? Did he hunt the North American Grizzly Bear? Did he conquer the Picts of scotland?Maybe when the Bible uses "global Language" iut might just be reffering to Local events? See above for universal language. That sounds like you have an issue with the Church. Did a preacher drop you on your head when you where born LOL. YOu want people like me to listen and understand you, yet you hint that we dont use our brains on spiritual matters. Good way to go about it. Do animals know that they are naked? Do they have the intelligence to know if Miffy the next door Pitbull is "naked" as we understand it?

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Cutting to the chase: Yes. Animals do know that they are physically naked.Now, how does that relate to the "nakedness" in Genesis 3? How was Adam and Eve's "nakedness" different from that of the other animals? I was delivered by a doctor.

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Well, Ringo, I will say that this has been one of the best debates I've been in. You've been a formidable opponent. I'm already sorta debating a teen on another forum, but he is not on your level in debate skills. Really? Hold on, let me ask my Dog.....(asking dog)....(waiting for reply. Jeopardy music)....Hmm, he only seems to look at me with those cute eyes of his. I might just give him a treat.Now there is a book that might answer the "naked" issue. I hate to use it because it is so full of fallacies, outdated info, and false info (even answersingenesis dont recommend it LOL) But it has a few pages on this topic. It is a young earth book, but it's article might give an answer. I'll post it's info if you want. It's called "Unlocking the mysteries of Creation" I was delivered by Gypsies to my parent's house. At least that is what my Brother told me when I was five. He still does LOL.If you want to end this discussion (like I do) we can talk on another thread.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

The question I asked in Message 66 was:

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How was Adam and Eve's "nakedness" different from that of the other animals?

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If you have an answer to that question, or if your young-earth source (tee-hee) has an answer, I'd be glad to hear it.

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Well, every species of animal has different nakedness (see pictures of naked elephants, Hippo,s Bears and Humans for comparison)The only difference is that humans realized it, ie eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil. Unlike the animals (who didn't seem to care) Adam and Eve wore fig leaves (Genesis 3:7)and wanted to hide their physical nakedness from God (Genesis 3:8-10)Even today most people of the world (if not all) wear some kind of clothing. The animals, on the other hand, didn't seem to care about their nakedness when God "came" into the Garden.Is there a deeper meaning? Yes of course. But there is also a literal meaning as well. Hey, dont make me feel worse! I feel odd enough just mentioning that book LOL! It is just that it has a whole chapter on it and i thought it might, just might be useful.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Okay. Good. That's a start. Okay, so leaving the literal meaning aside, what is the deeper meaning?

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Deeper meaning? Probably the "Nakedness" also reffered to their sin. It's as if their sin kept them from getting in the visible presence of God, almost condemning them.Plus, instead of trusting in God and following him, they followed the advice of a mysterious snake, and rebelled against God by eating the fruit. It also hints that Eve wanted to be like God when she ate the fruit (Genesis 3:1-6)It might be saying "{those who try to strive to be a God will get a rude awakening by God himself"So it seems to me that sin, striving for deity, and rebellion are themes in this story. But I still see it literal.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Let's think this through a little more.They were "naked", but they didn't notice until they ate the fruit - until they acquired the knowledge of good and evil. What was it about the knowledge of good and evil that allowed them to "see" their "nakedness"?Hint: Think "nakedness", "exposure", "vulnerability"....Then, what were the effects of their new-found knowledge? Cast out into the cold, cruel world....Compare: "warm, sustaining womb"....Sooo...? (You're supposed to pause for thought during the dots. )

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It seems your implying a sort of maturity or birth aspect of this story. But you have to remember that there whre two mysterious trees in the Garden: the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil (since it takes so long to write that out, I'll just say "Tree of KGE)and the Tree of Life. The Tree of life was not off limits like the tree of KGE (Compare Genesis 2:9 and Genesis 2:15-17), that is until Adam and Eve sinned. But as the text says, if they ate of that fruit, they would become immortal (Genesis 3:22)If they would have eaten of that Tree instead of the tree of KGE, then they would have experienced a different kind of change. In a sense, the two trees distinguish two ways: God's way (Tree of life) and Satan's way (Tree of KGE) life and death. Salvation or damnation. Adam and Eve chose the latter, despite God's warning. The story literally happened in the Bible, and it also contained deeper truths. But it wasn't about Adam and Eve gaining a "rise" ie becoming far more intelligent, but a "Fall" from God's graces and from the chance to attain immortality. A "Fall" from eternal life (salvation) into seperation from God (Damnation)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents our ability to distinguish right and wrong - not a bad thing. It also represents our responsibility to do what's right. Some may see responsibility as a "curse" but the more mature attitude is to think of it as a blessing.The tree of life represents a blissful (zombie-like) "communion" with God. Have you heard of people who are "so heavenly-minded that they're no earthly good"? Some may see oblivion as a blessing but the more mature attitude is to think of it as a curse.Notice how God didn't seem concerned about Adam and Eve eating from the tree of life until after they had already eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Did He even mention the tree of life until after they had the knowledge of good and evil?It seems that eternal life had no significance until after they had the knowledge of good and evil. How can you appreciate eternal life without the knowledge of good and evil?So, yes, Adam and Eve did mature when they ate the fruit. It is a story of "growing up", of leaving the womb, of leaving the home. That's a good thing, not a "fall".

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That's experience, not intelligence. It probably wouldn't take a clever physicist very long puzzle it out for himself.This message has been edited by RickJB, 05-01-2006 02:36 PM