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Author Topic:   His Dark Materials
GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 46 of 69 (440054)
12-11-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by nator
12-11-2007 7:07 AM


nator writes:

Or, if having any faith makes sense at all.

We all have faith whether it's in God or ourselves. As Bob Dylan said' "you've got to serve somebody".

Atheism is every bit as much a faith Christianity. You have faith that no God exists, which is something that you can't prove, and I have faith that God does exist which is something I can't prove.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by nator, posted 12-11-2007 7:07 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Shtop, posted 12-11-2007 1:49 PM GDR has responded
 Message 57 by nator, posted 12-11-2007 7:03 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Shtop
Junior Member (Idle past 615 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 07-19-2007


Message 47 of 69 (440087)
12-11-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
12-11-2007 10:54 AM


At the risk of dragging this way off topic:

Atheism is every bit as much a faith Christianity.

I disagree.

You have faith that no God exists, which is something that you can't prove, and I have faith that God does exist which is something I can't prove.

I think you are using the word "faith" wrongly here. I don't have faith that god does not exist, I simply lack the faith that he does. Not having faith in [A] does not equal having faith in [not A].

Back on topic: I remember buying the trilogy (for myself to read) and the lady at the till charged me full price for them. I mentioned the "3 for 2" deal that was advertised throughout the store, and she said "That's on adult fiction. These are kids books" which made me feel a bit embarrassed for some reason!

Anyway I enjoyed them very much. I'll have to read them again before watching the film.


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 Message 46 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 10:54 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 69 (440094)
12-11-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by truthlover
12-11-2007 3:44 AM


Re: The Movie
Can you tell me why you don't think so?

Don't you think that destiny can simply be a function of who you are, the experiences you've had, and the situations that you find yourself in?

Consider the world of the Matrix; Neo certainly has a destiny but there's nothing in the movie to suggest that any divinity but his own nature is responsible for it.

In a book where "destiny" causes things to happen, Destiny *is* God.

People can talk about destiny like it is God, for sure, but I don't see that the presence of destiny as a theme in a work automatically inserts God into that work.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I guess, just giving a different perspective. As always it's a pleasure to find out what you think about these things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by truthlover, posted 12-11-2007 3:44 AM truthlover has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 49 of 69 (440113)
12-11-2007 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Shtop
12-11-2007 1:49 PM


Shtop writes:

I don't have faith that god does not exist, I simply lack the faith that he does.

But you still have to base your life on some basic faith system. As an Atheist you are putting your faith in the concept that humanity is on its own and that there is no purpose or meaning to life beyond what we can discern from the physical world. As a Christian I have faith that there is more to our existence than that, and I have faith that Christianity answers the question of what that is.

These books were written with the acknowledged purpose of providing an Atheistic alternate to the Narnia series. Narnia was written to promote Christianity whereas, "His Dark Materials" is being used to promote Atheism. There is no need to promote or evamngelize a non-faith.

We all park our faith somewhere no matter what we beleive.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 50 of 69 (440119)
12-11-2007 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
12-11-2007 3:40 PM


We all park our faith somewhere no matter what we beleive

Unless you're a true sceptic.

Tell me, just what in HSD promotes atheism? What in there is a guide to atheism? I read it as an attack against fundamentalism and barbarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 3:40 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 4:52 PM kuresu has responded
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 51 of 69 (440139)
12-11-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by kuresu
12-11-2007 3:58 PM


kurseu writes:

Tell me, just what in HSD promotes atheism? What in there is a guide to atheism?

"I'm trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief," says Pullman. "Mr. Lewis would think I was doing the Devil's work."

Quote from the washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23371-2001Feb18


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 52 of 69 (440147)
12-11-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by GDR
12-11-2007 4:52 PM


thank you for not answering my question. you gave me what the author thought he is doing.

What specifically in HDM promotes atheism?

You do realize that attacking one position is not the same as supporting a different position, right? Which is why we tell creos that they have to support ID/creo/YEC/lunacy with more than attacks on evolution, because they aren't actually supporting their claim.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 4:52 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 53 of 69 (440153)
12-11-2007 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by kuresu
12-11-2007 5:20 PM


It is agreed that Pullman is an exceptional author and he has stated that his intent is to discredit Christianity.

wiki writes:

Pullman is a supporter of the British Humanist Association and an Honorary Associate of the National Secular Society.

He openly objects to any Theistic belief. It seems to me that when a gifted author claims that he has a goal in writing a book that we can assume that he is likely to be successful.

I have only read about the books so I'm not going to attempt to be specific about what in them promotes Atheism, but when the book is aimed at discrediting Christianity specifically and Theism more generally then I think that we can safely assume that he is writing to give credence to his own faith which is Atheism.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 5:20 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 69 (440159)
12-11-2007 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by kuresu
12-11-2007 3:58 PM


Tell me, just what in HSD promotes atheism?

The part where they kill God? Just a thought.

Not to side with GDR - atheism isn't a faith, it's a lack of faith - but it's really untenable to try to interpret HDM as being compatible with theism. The characters in HDM prove that there's no God.

I read it as an attack against fundamentalism and barbarity.

I know it's really easy for moderate theists to read any argument against theism as being against "fundamentalism", but it's a bad habit.

I mean it's astounding the degree to which theists can apparently nod their heads all the way through the arguments of atheists and then say "oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. I didn't think you were talking about my beliefs, just fundamentalism." Take a step back, moderates, and realize that the only thing that distinguishes you from the fundamentalists in our eyes is that fundamentalists have the courage of their convictions and you guys don't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by kuresu, posted 12-11-2007 3:58 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 55 of 69 (440168)
12-11-2007 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by GDR
12-11-2007 5:44 PM


uh-huh. You haven't read the books. So then you can't really say what in HDM promotes atheism, can you? Then why did you say it did?

And again, attacking one position does not support a different position, in and of itself. And that, so far, is all you've quoted about Pullman, that he is discrediting Christianity.

Again, there is a difference betweeing discrediting/attacking a position and supporting a different position. Doing the first does not accomplish the latter. And doing the latter doesn't necessarily do the first.


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 Message 53 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 5:44 PM GDR has responded

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 56 of 69 (440171)
12-11-2007 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by crashfrog
12-11-2007 6:15 PM


characters in HDM prove that there's no God.

Well, no they don't. In fact, you recently said that the authority was the only god they had in the book. So either there is a god in that book, or there isn't, and you've said both.

The part where they kill God

Well, again, they don't. They kill the second in command who has taken over god's role. God is this little guy locked up in a crystal. And when the crystal is broken, he floats away and disapears. And the angels in rebellion certainly don't think of him as god, but an imposter. And if god was able to be locked up and put away, he certainly doesn't seem like the god spoken of who is all powerful and all knowing. The only thing killed in this book is a specific idea of god, a largely fundamentalist idea of god, not the complete idea of god.

How long ago did you read this, anyway?

the only thing that distinguishes you from the fundamentalists in our eyes is that fundamentalists have the courage of their convictions and you guys don't

This isn't particularly true, either. I think it would be a little much to say that jar is the same as ray, except ray says things with courage. There's a clear difference between moderates and fundies of any stripe. And that is largely the fanaticism and the extreme rhetoric. You're not pegging me as a theist, are you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2007 6:15 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 69 (440178)
12-11-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by GDR
12-11-2007 10:54 AM


quote:
Atheism is every bit as much a faith Christianity. You have faith that no God exists, which is something that you can't prove, and I have faith that God does exist which is something I can't prove.

Actually, I'm an agnostic.

I don't have any religious faith in anything.

But tell me, do you have religious faith that Vishnu, or Loki, or Zeus, or Santa Claus don't exist?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 10:54 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 58 of 69 (440183)
12-11-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
12-11-2007 3:40 PM


quote:
But you still have to base your life on some basic faith system.

No, you don't, actually.

quote:
As an Atheist you are putting your faith in the concept that humanity is on its own

Not really.

I don't actually know if humanity is on its own or not, but all the evidence seems to indicate that it is, so that's the working hypothesis I operate under until there's a reason to change it.

See the difference? No faith, just evidence.

quote:
and that there is no purpose or meaning to life beyond what we can discern from the physical world.

I don't know if there is a purpose or meaning to this life other than that we determine for ourselves, but this certainly seems to be the case based upon the evidence. That is the working hypothesis I use, but I'll change it if there's ever evidence that I need to.

See the difference? No faith, just evidence.

quote:
There is no need to promote or evamngelize a non-faith.

You don't think there's a need to promote the rejection of superstition in favor of rationality?

I'll bet you would agree that there is such a need if we were discussing the promotion of the Heaven's Gate cult, or Homeopathy, or any number of irrational beliefs you don't personally adhere to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 12-11-2007 3:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 59 of 69 (440184)
12-11-2007 7:14 PM


Topic! for nator and GDR
The topic is a movie! It is not the definition of faith or atheism.

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4983
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 60 of 69 (440187)
12-11-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by kuresu
12-11-2007 6:29 PM


kuresu writes:

uh-huh. You haven't read the books. So then you can't really say what in HDM promotes atheism, can you? Then why did you say it did?

Because I took the author at his word. You're probably right though - you can never trust an Atheist. :)

AbE Sorry. I posted this before seeing the post from admin

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)

This message is a reply to:
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