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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 340 of 1725 (575052)
08-18-2010 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by onifre
08-17-2010 5:02 PM


Re: RAZD and Bluegenes - Peanut Gallery
Hi Oni,
Onifre writes:
No, Straggler, you miss the point. If in fact Jesus was born of a virgin, then either the claim itself is not true, or, there is a natural explanation (not yet known to us) that demonstrates how this happened.
I think your natural explanation is called artificial insemination.
Wikipedia says:
Artificial insemination, is the process by which a female is impregnated by using means other than sexual intercourse.
Source
John Hunter reported on artificial insemination in medical literature in 1790.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by onifre, posted 08-17-2010 5:02 PM onifre has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 880 of 1725 (603623)
02-06-2011 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 763 by bluegenes
02-02-2011 6:54 PM


Re: Harry Potter.
Hi bluegenes,
In Message 91 you said:
bluegenes writes:
Would you like to quote me claiming that they should be taken as 100% true? See my points above. Merely containing information that ancient cultures couldn't know without outside help would have been enough.
Here is the information the author of Genesis had no way of knowing without outside help.
If the creation story in Genesis 2:4-25 is a myth how did the author know man contained the following elements.
1. Oxygen
2. Carbon
3. Hydrogen
4. Nitrogen
5. Calcium
6. Phosphorus
7. Potassium
8. Sulphur
9. Sodium
10. Chlorine
11. Magnesium
12. Iron
13. Silicon
14. Fluorine
15. Iodine
16. Manganese
If that story was made up out of the imagination of the author some 3500 years ago, how did the author know you could find all these elements in a human.
I would dare say if you could ask him where humans come from he would tell you people have sex and sometimes that produces a child.
Yet he was very specific in stating that God formed man from the dust of the ground.
It has been a while since I studied agriculture but if I remember correctly you can find all these in the dust of the ground.
Since this man had no way of knowing what elements were in mankind or in the earth someone had to give him the correct information.
Otherwise how would he know to say God formed man from the earth?
It is a scientific fact we contain these elements and that the earth contains these elements.
How would a man 3500 years ago know that information?
Well he probably didn't know that information. How could he? Some entity had to impart that information to him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 763 by bluegenes, posted 02-02-2011 6:54 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 881 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 8:09 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 885 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 1:13 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 882 of 1725 (603630)
02-06-2011 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 881 by bluegenes
02-06-2011 8:09 AM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
But "dust", if we read it as "soil', is one that could have been drawn from observations, hence the chemical accuracy.
Actually the person who wrote Genesis was a shepherd, a tender of the flocks.
But I got another question for you.
How did the author know about Pangea?
He wrote in Genesis 1:9 "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so."
Somehow he had knowledge that in the past the earth looked like my avatar as that is the picture he painted in Genesis.
How would the author of Genesis know that in time past all the land mass was in one place as in Pangea which is a recent discovery?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 881 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 8:09 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 883 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 10:02 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 884 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2011 10:37 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 918 by Blue Jay, posted 02-07-2011 1:47 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 887 of 1725 (603652)
02-06-2011 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 883 by bluegenes
02-06-2011 10:02 AM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
Good try. He didn't.
You are correct he did not know about Pangea.
In 1912 Alfred Wegener first presented his his theory of continental drift.
This is the first knowledge of all land mass being in one place in the past.
Yet the author of Genesis recorded that at one time all land mass was in one place at one time in the past.
How did he know that information 3500 years ago without information that was not available to mankind?
If you desire you can say "I don't know".
I simply believe he received the information from a Super Natural Being as you call Him.
If you have a different source he could have gotten the information please present it.
bluegenes writes:
Then he messes it up big time by putting modern sounding vegetation on the land before creating the sun and the stars, which should have been there for billions of years.
Now you start with the smoke and mirrors.
You said nothing about errors that you believe occured.
You said the ancients having knowledge that was not available to them without outside help.
I presented two pieces of information that the writer of Genesis wrote about that was not available to him.
I can only imagine someone 3500 years ago telling how a human began to exist. It wasn't even talked about 65 years ago.
Yet he recorded that man came from the earth as he was formed of the dust of the ground. It is a scientific fact that mankind has all the elements I presented to you which is found in the earth.
If I understand anything about the origin of life that supposidly evolved into mankind it came from sort of primortal soup.
He also recorded that the land mass was in one place in time past.
That is two pieces of information that was not available 3500 years ago.
Your so called theory is that all God's are made up in the mind of man.
If the author of Genesis did not get this information from a Super Natural Being, where did he get it from?
Let me present another piece of information for your consideration.
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
How did the author of Genesis know that there was a mother language of all languages.
The information found Here was not available to the author of Genesis. It hasn't been around very long.
Scientific monogenesis: The Mother Tongue theory.
Theories of monogenesis do not necessarily derive from religious belief. Many modern scholars believe in a theory of monogenesis that has come to be called the Mother Tongue Theory. This theory holds that one original language spoken by a single group of Homo sapiens perhaps as early as 150 thousand years ago gave rise to all human languages spoken on the Earth today. As humans colonized various continents, this original mother tongue diverged through time to form the numerous languages spoken today. Since many scientists believe that the first fully modern humans appeared in Africa, the mother tongue theory is connected with a more general theory of human origin known as the Out of Africa theory. Currently, the theory of evolutionary monogenesis tends to be favored by a group of linguists working in the United States.
I have presented 3 pieces of evidence that according to you would falsify your theory.
But you will do here as you have done in the debate with RAZD and ignore anything I have said.
Now if you want to eliminate any of the 3 examples I have given so far all you have to do is present where the author of Genesis obtained his informatin that:
Man came from the dust of the ground.
All land mass was in one place in time past.
That all spoken languages came from one language. Remember there was many languages at the time of the writing of Genesis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 883 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 10:02 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 3:24 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 891 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2011 3:30 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 892 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 3:32 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 896 by xongsmith, posted 02-06-2011 3:54 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 888 of 1725 (603655)
02-06-2011 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 884 by Coyote
02-06-2011 10:37 AM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
You're cherry picking things that might be interpreted to be accurate.
How about those things that are clearly wrong?
Can I play this game when talking about scientific things?
But out of curosity how many things would I have to come up with that was written about some 3500 years ago that the informtion of actual existence did not occur until the last couple of hundred years to satisfy the possibility of there being some Super Natural Being that gave this information to the authors?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 884 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2011 10:37 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2011 3:06 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 895 of 1725 (603666)
02-06-2011 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by onifre
02-06-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Harry Potter.
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
1) Why didn't the author just write down the actual elements? Why say "the ground" and not include the actual elements that make up the human body, and leave it up to your interpretation?
2) Why did god need the ground to get those elements? Couldn't he just magically produce those elements and make a human without the use of soil? Which, btw, doesn't contain all of those elements in every location, every single time. Not even all the time.
1. Why would it be necessary for him to name the actual elements in the human body?
Prior to 1 AD the known elements were gold, silver, copper, iron, lead, tin, mecury, sulfer and carbon. During the time from 1 AD to 1735 AD was added Arsenic (Magnus ~1250)
Antimony (17th century or earlier)
Phosphorus (Brand 1669)
Zinc (13th Century India)
Knowledge of all other came after 1735.
Since that information was not given to the author of Genesis it was not avaliable.
2. Since He made the ground He wouldn't have had to use the ground He just chose to do it that way.
I am well aware that all elements are not contained in all soils today. But we are talking about a brand new earth with soil that was not poluted by mankind.
onifre writes:
Some/most soil is crap.
Yes humans have made a mess of it haven't we.
onifre writes:
Well the Chinese had already built a culture, had herbal medicine and time keeping devices which helped them figure out lots of astrological movements when god was creating the first man.
Not if you use my timeline of the first man that was formed from the dust of the ground in the day God created the Heaven and the Earth.
That was several billion years ago if it was not trillions upon trillions of years ago.
onifre writes:
So humans knew the land was rich and that chemistry occured with different processes.
They had very limited knowledge of the elements in the land as I presented above.
Now would you like to give a source for the information that the author of Genesis need to write:
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
This would be a picture of Pangea.
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech
How would the author of Genesis know that there was only one language at a time in the past? There was many languages when Genesis was written.
Today we have several theories the one that seems to be most accepted today is the Scientific monogenesis: The Mother Tongue theory.
So it is accepted today that at some time in the past there was one language.
Remember I am not trying to prove anything.
I am only pointing out the possibility of a Super Natural Being which would falsify bluegenes so called theory.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 1:13 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 4:05 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 901 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 4:38 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 902 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2011 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 898 of 1725 (603670)
02-06-2011 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 889 by Coyote
02-06-2011 3:06 PM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi Coyote,
Coyote writes:
Before you try to claim that "dust" equals a host of specific chemicals, try to explain how this "Super Natural Being" missed it so badly with that flood story.
Coyote I do not have a problem with the flood of the Bible because i believe in Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth".
Since I believe God created the Earth I also believe He can do anything with it He desires.
If it takes a miracle that is no problem.
As I have said in the past I don't argue the flood. I may at times point out things that happen on a daily bases such as the bay of fundy that proves the water could rise 55' in 6 hours and leave in the next 6 hours and leave no evidence of having been there, as pointing to the possibility of the flood. I have designed an ark that has over 18 acres of floor space and for the smaller animals there could be much more added.
But that is not what I am discussing here.
Here I am presenting things that was recorded over 3500 years ago that the information of such was not available at that time.
Now if you have an alternate source that the author of Genesis could have acquired that information please present it.
BTW bluegenes did not say anything about what may or may not be false information.
He said information our ancestors recorded that they did not have access too.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Coyote, posted 02-06-2011 3:06 PM Coyote has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 899 of 1725 (603672)
02-06-2011 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Modulous
02-06-2011 3:30 PM


Boats
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
I don't think we need turn to the supernatural to explain how men that never saw other physical continents went on to describe the world in terms of there being only one.
Since the author of Genesis was raised and educated in Egypt in the house of Pharoah as the son of his daughter why wouldn't he know of different land masses.
Egypt had boats for over 500 years by the time of the writing of Genesis.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2011 3:30 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 910 by Modulous, posted 02-06-2011 6:53 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 900 of 1725 (603674)
02-06-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by xongsmith
02-06-2011 3:54 PM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi xong,
xongsmith writes:
BUT- Pangaea was not the initial condition, as bluegenes has already pointed out -
As I understand it Pangaea has happened several times since the earth began to exist. And not always in the same shape.
xongsmit writes:
Maybe he was just fucking lucky?
One would be lucky, 2 would be extra lucky, 3 would be unbelievable but I ain't done yet there are a lot of other things I can present if I choose.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by xongsmith, posted 02-06-2011 3:54 PM xongsmith has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 903 of 1725 (603677)
02-06-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 897 by bluegenes
02-06-2011 4:05 PM


Linguistics
Hi bluegenes,
bluegenes writes:
Please, ICANT darling, think a bit will you? He's invented the story of Adam and Eve and their family. Of course he would see them as speaking one language.
So if he knew there was one language and so stated then our modern Linguists have proved the statement a true statement which would make it an empirical piece of evidence or something like that.
But some of them have proposed that God in the garden spoke German, Adam and Eve spoke Balsica and the serpent spoke French.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 4:05 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 908 by bluegenes, posted 02-06-2011 5:37 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 904 of 1725 (603678)
02-06-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 902 by crashfrog
02-06-2011 4:40 PM


Re: Harry Potter.
Hi crashfrog,
crashfrog writes:
So he didn't know it because it was not available, and that somehow proves that the Genesis writer knew things that were not available at the time.
That is the entire purpose of this discussion I started about bluegenes so called theory.
The man wrote about things he had absolutely no knowledge of. He was recording what he was told to write down in a book.
His claim is all Super Natural Beings are made up in the human mind.
His statement was that if our ancestors had information that was not available to them that basically his position would be in grave doubt.
I have presented written information that was not available to the man that recorded it.
There is no source for that man to have obtained that information.
It could only have been provided by a Super Natural Being.
All information comes from an intelligent mind or some recorded source.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 902 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2011 4:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2011 5:05 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 906 of 1725 (603682)
02-06-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 901 by onifre
02-06-2011 4:38 PM


Re: Harry Potter.
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
No we are not, we're talking about the Earth 3500 years ago. You are off by 4 billion years.
You may be talking about Earth 3500 years ago. But the author of Genesis was talking of the Earth from which man was formed from in the day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. That took place in the beginning whenever that was.
onifre writes:
But I'd rather use the accurate, well documented timeline. Not your unfounded numbers.
So yes, right around the time you claim god was creating man, the Chinese had a culture rich in sceince and math.
Why do you say you had rather use the accurate well documented timeline and then add right around the time you claim God was creating man?
If you want to use the time I have God creating man you will use billions of years or more, as I don't know when the beginning was.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by onifre, posted 02-06-2011 4:38 PM onifre has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 907 of 1725 (603683)
02-06-2011 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 905 by crashfrog
02-06-2011 5:05 PM


Re: Harry Potter.
Hi crash,
crashfrog writes:
Be specific.
The information that was recorded by the author of Genesis. He did record much information. Much of which was not available to him without an outside source.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 905 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2011 5:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2011 6:51 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 961 of 1725 (603933)
02-09-2011 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by Blue Jay
02-07-2011 1:47 PM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
I don't see how you get Pangaea out of this scripture.
Its easy for me as the text says:
Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
You mean you can't get all the water in one place which would leave the dry land that did appear being in one place?
Bluejay writes:
It sounds like God was taking a bunch of water from somewhere
Our atmosphere as we know it today was made breathable air. Which left the earth covered with water. This took place on the second day.
The pile of rock and dirt with its molten core we call earth which was created in Genesis 1:1 was covered in water in Genesis 1:2
All that water was collected into one place leaving a body of land that protruded above the water in Genesis 1:9. That would look like my Avatar whice is a modified picture of Pangea. This took place on the third day.
Bluejay writes:
To suggest this as evidence that the writer knew about Pangaea before it the existence of Pangaea was discovered by science is, at best, highly tenuous.
I doubt if the word Pangea existed when Genesis 1:9 was written.
But the man that wrote it knew that at one time all the water was in one place and dry land protruded out of it.
How do I know he knew that? Because that is what he wrote.
When he did his writing he knew there was land on the other side of the sea as when he killed the task master he fled acrose the sea to Midian, and spent 40 years there.
Bluejay writes:
Of course, everybody else is probably just avoiding this line of argument because they don't want to get into a discussion about how prepositions are used in Hebrew and what the Hebrew verb translated into English as "let" actually means.
In Genesis chapter 1 there is no Hebrew word that is translated let.
It was added by translators.
Here is the KJV text with strongs numbers of the Hebrew words in
Genesis 1:9
Gen 1:9 And God 430 said 559 , Let the waters 4325 under the heaven 8064 be gathered together 6960 unto 413 one 259 place 4725, and let the dry 3004 [land] appear 7200 : and it was so.
If you look those numbers up you will get the basic word but not the exact word with the prefix's or suffix's that are in the Hebrew text.
The author of Genesis also knew that in the beginning there was no seas.
There is no way the author of Genesis could have known there were no seas in the beginning or that at one time all the water was collected into 1 place leaving land in 1 place without the information being provided by an outside source.
Thus the requirement for a Super Natural Being.
Unless you or someone can provide a different source for the information.
Remember I am not trying to prove anything. Neither am I debating an issue. I have simply pointed out that the author of Genesis wrote about things that the information was not available to him at the time of his writing. The information became available a very long time after his death.
bluegenes had said if our ancestors knew things that is recent knowledge that would put doubt on his so called theory.
Moses wrote about many things that was not known until the last few hundred years.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by Blue Jay, posted 02-07-2011 1:47 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 962 by DrJones*, posted 02-09-2011 2:11 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 982 by Blue Jay, posted 02-09-2011 10:03 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 976 of 1725 (604025)
02-09-2011 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 962 by DrJones*
02-09-2011 2:11 AM


Re: Dust to dust!
Hi Jones,
DrJones writes:
why would moving all the water to one place move all the land to one other place?
I did not say all the land was in one place.
There is wet land under the water. Even though some of it has miles of water on top of it.
I did say 'dry land' protruded out of the water and that dry land was in one place just as Pangea puts forth.
Now to try to find the topic. The man who wrote Genesis 1:9 would be one of our ancestors. That man wrote information that no other man had until recently.
Either he had outside help giving him that information or as Zong says he was very lucky, and not just on this one occasion.
If he had outside help bluegenes so called theory is falsified.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 962 by DrJones*, posted 02-09-2011 2:11 AM DrJones* has not replied

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