Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8943 total)
36 online now:
Newest Member: LaLa dawn
Post Volume: Total: 863,953 Year: 18,989/19,786 Month: 1,409/1,705 Week: 215/446 Day: 13/98 Hour: 4/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   true religion
Mike Holland
Member
Posts: 168
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 16 of 84 (39848)
05-12-2003 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 8:21 PM


Is it really that simple? What about people of other religions who have faith in God, but no faith in the New Testament? I expect you really want us to have faith in the Bible and faith in your interpretation of it.

Do you have faith in unicorns? - mentioned many times in the Bible. Do you have faith in fairies? If not, then we can call you faithless, too.

I'll stick to my interpretation, the 'faith' means the same as 'no evidence', and put it along with voodoo, theosophy, scientology, witches, hobgoblins, and ghosts. Some of these things are fascinating, but to base ones life on them seems ridiculous.

If you want to preach love, I am all for it, but leave behind all the baggage that comes with it in the Christian religion. But better than preaching, just practice it.

Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Holland, 05-12-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 8:21 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 8:50 PM Mike Holland has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 84 (39850)
05-12-2003 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Mike Holland
05-12-2003 8:41 PM


'Do you have faith in unicorns? - mentioned many times in the Bible. Do you have faith in fairies? If not, then we can call you faithless, too.'

but can you say you have faith in Jesus Christ who died for our sins.

a fairy doesn't grant me everlasting life , nor a unicorn , indeed the difference between these are obvious to see, please come up with something better than that , next you'll be asking me to worship a rock. lol.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Mike Holland, posted 05-12-2003 8:41 PM Mike Holland has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 05-18-2003 8:30 AM mike the wiz has responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 84 (39851)
05-12-2003 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 8:21 PM


quote:
however what they lack is faith in God!!!

And?

quote:
yes but for some reason evos think we should know every silly little question and if we dont know we are wrong

Or that you simply shouldn't expect anyone else to believe you.

quote:
it is clearly stated in the new testament that whoever believes is saved , this is why i think you should believe

It is clearly stated in The Iliad that if a warrior falls in battle he will live forever in the Elysian Fields. Are you rushing out to grab your spear?

quote:
i know its a cynical world but i do want people to believe for their own sakes believe it or not.

It has nothing to do with cynicism. It's simple credulity.

------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 8:21 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:05 PM Dan Carroll has responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 19 of 84 (39852)
05-12-2003 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dan Carroll
05-12-2003 8:57 PM


and your arguments are feeble to say the least.

'It is clearly stated in The Iliad that if a warrior falls in battle he will live forever in the Elysian Fields. Are you rushing out to grab your spear?'

did iliad or anyone in it die for your sin?

indeed is the iliad the best selling book in the world , no , why ,cos the bible is , and the millions who believe , the majority of people on earth are you offering them something better?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-12-2003 8:57 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-12-2003 9:28 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 26 by nator, posted 05-13-2003 9:15 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 33 by Rrhain, posted 05-14-2003 7:13 PM mike the wiz has responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 84 (39856)
05-12-2003 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 9:05 PM


quote:
and your arguments are feeble to say the least.

This from the guy who didn't want anyone attacking him.

quote:
did iliad or anyone in it die for your sin?

Ahem... first of all, Iliad is not a person, and cannot die for anything.

Secondly, you're entirely missing the point. Why should what one book says be more convincing than what another says? Both refer to supernatural occurances, including God (or gods), both tell you how you can go to paradise after you die.

So why aren't you making sacrifices to Zeus?

Because writing something down doesn't make it true.

quote:
indeed is the iliad the best selling book in the world , no , why ,cos the bible is , and the millions who believe , the majority of people on earth

So it's numbers that matter now? Well... leaving aside the fact that this means Britney Spears is the best musician in the world right now...

Islam is the most widely practiced religion on the planet. (If you don't lump all different sects of Christianity into one group.) Are you going to start praying towards Mecca now that everybody's doing it?

Of course not. Because saying that high numbers of believers is proof that you should believe would be a basic logical fallacy. Argumentum ad populum.

quote:
are you offering them something better?

Why should I? They want to believe, they can go right ahead. They seem happy enough. But if they approach me and ask me to believe it too, they should expect me to ask them why I should. (Which is what you took offense to in the first place.)

-----------
Dan Carroll

[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 05-12-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:05 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:43 PM Dan Carroll has responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 84 (39857)
05-12-2003 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Dan Carroll
05-12-2003 9:28 PM


'Why should what one book says be more convincing than what another says?'

well first of all winnie the pooh is fiction based were as the bible is fact based.

'So it's numbers that matter now?'

not really but the vast majority of people buy the bible more than any other book because they believe it true, you asked for one reason and i gave it.

'Britney Spears is the best musician in the world right now...'

well personally i prefer pink floyd , however what has this got to do with the bible.

'Which is what you took offense to in the first place.)'

by all means dont believe , but dont insist that there is no truth in the word of God to me because i wont believe it , because it has phrophesised more things than any other book , and has clearly predicted events in my life which HAVE come to pass!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-12-2003 9:28 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 05-12-2003 10:04 PM mike the wiz has responded
 Message 24 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-12-2003 10:33 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

truthlover
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 22 of 84 (39861)
05-12-2003 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 9:43 PM


quote:
well first of all winnie the pooh is fiction based were as the bible is fact based.

Winnie the Pooh is, but the oldest Scriptures in the world are the Vedas, not the Hebrew Scriptures. Gandhi believed in the Vedas. His favorite was the Baghavad Gita (please excuse the spelling, as it's probably wrong). He lived by it, and he taught the power of truth and resisting evil without violence.

Surely almost no one lived as changed a life as Mohandes K. Gandhi. He transformed the world around him, transformed his friends, formed communities, and his teachings, which were not his own, but based on the Gita, still touch numerous lives.

So now, exactly why should your friend's changed life prove anything more than Gandhi's? Should we all become Hindu?

You say Jesus died for our sins. The Hindus say Jesus went to India and leaned his teachings from other Sadhus and returned to Israel as a Sadhu, even an avatar, with teachings he got from the Hindi in India.

Why should I believe you over Gandhi? Why should I choose the Bible over the Gita?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:43 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 10:26 PM truthlover has not yet responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 23 of 84 (39867)
05-12-2003 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by truthlover
05-12-2003 10:04 PM


Why should I believe you over Gandhi? Why should I choose the Bible over the Gita?

Because Jesus offers you everlasting life.
Because Jesus forgets your sins and you are born again in spirit.
because Ghandi is not God, he cannot perform the miracles Jesus performed . Look at all the books if you want and i promise you you WILL be satisfied with Gods message to us in the bible, remember God loves you too despite your erguements and is capable of saving you, and Jesus said 'my words shall never pass' was not he right

(ending replies here as i am sick of people coming back to me on this , believe what you want but if i dont believe in trucks it doesn't mean one wont hit me if i walk on to a motorway , i'll leave you with that thought)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by truthlover, posted 05-12-2003 10:04 PM truthlover has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 05-12-2003 10:35 PM mike the wiz has responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 84 (39870)
05-12-2003 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 9:43 PM


quote:
well first of all winnie the pooh is fiction based were as the bible is fact based.

As is the Iliad. It's the story of the Trojan War.

"Based" is the key word here.

quote:
not really but the vast majority of people buy the bible more than any other book because they believe it true, you asked for one reason and i gave it.

And that reason was a logical fallacy.

quote:
well personally i prefer pink floyd , however what has this got to do with the bible.

You brought up sales. By the standards you were using, it makes Britney Spears the best musician out there right now. Again, it's a logical fallacy.

quote:
but dont insist that there is no truth in the word of God to me because i wont believe it

Who said you had to? But what you seem to want is to deliver a sermon, not have a discussion.

Which makes me wonder why you're posting your opinions on a discussion board.

quote:
ending replies here as i am sick of people coming back to me on this

Again, if you want to deliver sermons without response, this may not be the best venue.

quote:
if i dont believe in trucks it doesn't mean one wont hit me if i walk on to a motorway , i'll leave you with that thought

I can point to a truck, and define what it is and how it works. Can you say as much about God?

------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:43 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 84 (39872)
05-12-2003 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 10:26 PM


(ending replies here as i am sick of people coming back to me on this ,

If you don't want people to talk about your beliefs why do you voice them so publicly? If your faith can't survive a couple of questions best you keep it to yourself.

if i dont believe in trucks it doesn't mean one wont hit me if i walk on to a motorway ,

Interesting - so, you think that belief and faith might not be the best way to determine the way things really are and what our place in this world might be? Funny, that's what we've been saying all along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 10:26 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 5:18 PM crashfrog has responded

nator
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 84 (39924)
05-13-2003 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
05-12-2003 9:05 PM


quote:
indeed is the iliad the best selling book in the world , no , why ,cos the bible is , and the millions who believe , the majority of people on earth are you offering them something better?

The majority of people in America believe in Astrology.

Does that make it real?

BTW, there are more non-Christian people in the world than Christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-12-2003 9:05 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 27 of 84 (39972)
05-13-2003 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
05-12-2003 10:35 PM


'If you don't want people to talk about your beliefs why do you voice them so publicly? If your faith can't survive a couple of questions best you keep it to yourself.'

i dont recall saying my faith hasn't survived a topic,can you show me where i said this?
actually it was 2 am and i was tired , so sorry to disapoint you evos but i still do believe everything i have said , (LAST COMMENT , IS THAT ALLRIGHT)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 05-12-2003 10:35 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 05-13-2003 5:26 PM mike the wiz has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 84 (39973)
05-13-2003 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
05-13-2003 5:18 PM


i dont recall saying my faith hasn't survived a topic,can you show me where i said this?

Then why withdraw? The way you're backing out of all your debates on this thread and others makes it seem like you're afraid to argue or something. It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I can't hear you!"

That's not a position suggestive of intellectual honesty. Consider the example of Truthlover, who (in my opinion) is as intellectually honest a person of faith as anyone is likely to come across. Does he say stuff like "I'm tired of evos arguing with me?" No. When he doesn't have an answer, he says so. That's honesty.

It looks like you're just retreating from questions you can't answer because you're afraid that if you don't have the answer it says something about your faith. To the contrary. If you don't have answers, no one's going to think worse of you or your faith if you just say so.

Take the last word, if that's important to you - but think about what I've said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 5:18 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 5:36 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4660
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 29 of 84 (39976)
05-13-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by crashfrog
05-13-2003 5:26 PM


'it was a very nice bit of writing , however you'll probably be attacked by the same old , 'wheres your proof , arguements from the usual evo fans, however your faith is better than their fruitless attacks'

this is my prediction which came true,i'm not scared of any come backs and it wasn't an excuse to get the last word in either , it was simply good manners to say i was leaving the web!

'It's like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "I can't hear you!"'

i have answered to the best of my ability and its not that i dont hear its just, all you are trying to do is say 'i'm right your wrong '
and frankly i just cant be bothered with that . NOTHING has changed my mind from what i have heard!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 05-13-2003 5:26 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-13-2003 6:00 PM mike the wiz has responded

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 84 (39979)
05-13-2003 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by mike the wiz
05-13-2003 5:36 PM


Mike... no one's trying to attack you, or change your mind, or get you to deny your faith or anything. If you want to believe in Christianity, go right ahead.

But if you're going to stroll out in public and start telling people that they should also believe in Christianity, they're going to ask you why they should. If your reasons don't meet their standards, they're going to point out why that is.

If you want to read that as an attack, that's your business.

------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 5:36 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 05-13-2003 6:20 PM Dan Carroll has responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019