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Author Topic:   for the record (re: guns thread)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 305 (399178)
05-04-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
05-04-2007 9:51 AM


On why own guns.
Comming from the UK I have no idea why Americans feel the need to have guns in the hands of civilians.
Guns are fun.
They are beautiful works of art, extremely well designed tools, a combination of functionality and art.
Shooting is fun.
Shooting teaches control, both mental and physical.
Most gun owners also take guns very seriously. Even more than the non-shooter, we are aware of just how dangerous guns are. Because of that, gun owners seem to be far more aware and careful than the general driving public.
I enjoy shooting very much, and I am pretty good at it, not in the league of the best, but certainly better than the average policeman.
When I carry a weapon, I am aware at all times that I do have a force multiplier, that use of the capability would have severe consequences, that I am prepared and trained to use it if necessary and that it really is a last resort capability.
That knowledge influences me in several ways. I have a heightened situational awareness at all times. I consciously try to avoid situations where confrontation is likely, and when in such a situation, tend to shrug challenges off. I know that I can protect myself, and because of that, have nothing to prove. I am far more likely, based on my personal experience, to walk away from an insult, simply ignore the source as no more than an irritant.
Edited by jar, : change sub-title

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 9:51 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by nator, posted 05-04-2007 10:57 AM jar has not replied
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 10:58 AM jar has replied
 Message 30 by Nuggin, posted 05-04-2007 5:26 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 305 (399184)
05-04-2007 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
05-04-2007 10:58 AM


Re: On why own guns.
I so would not have thought that you would carry a gun.
Just out of curiosity, why?
When you carry a gun around what is your primary motivation for doing so?
Protection, protection of myself and others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 10:58 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 12:09 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 305 (399202)
05-04-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Larni
05-04-2007 12:09 PM


Re: On why own guns.
How many times has your stated reason for carrying a gun come into play?
A few times. Certainly more often than I have turned in insurance claims.
Remember, part of what I described is the change in MY personality and point of view. Carrying a gun, like insurance, other martial arts or physical training, or even just learning, is as much a mental discipline as the actual object.
Just because I have insurance to cover me in an accident I do not drive carelessly. Insurance is hopefully something you do not use and that you try very hard to avoid needing.
I do not use a gun as a threat. Would never use a gun as a threat. It is a last resort and to be used ONLY to stop a threat.
Seriously though, I have difficulty seeing people carrying guns for anything other than shooting or threatening to shoot people and from my interaction with you on these boards you don't seem the type.
You are almost right there.
The emphasis though is on protecting self and others. It is passive until some external threat.
You made two judgments it seemed in your post. One involved making assumptions about my personality. And based on the information available to you, you created some image of "jar" that excluded the possibility of my being armed.
But would you expect me to be unarmed when it comes to insurance?
Would you expect me to be unarmed when it comes to knowledge?
Part of being prepared is that you DO change your mental attitude. When you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you can protect yourself, then there is no need to show off, to test, to impress others. Should I be challenged, I don't have to show the size of my cajones, I can simply dismiss the challenger as not worthy of my effort just as I dismiss some posters here at EvC as simply not worthy of even acknowledgment.
I do not have to win contests or arguments.
But if my life or safety, or even more importantly, your life or safety were threatened, I would also be able to help protect either of us.
If though, on the off chance you were threatened, and like another poster here on EvC would rather wait for the police instead of accepting my help, no problem. Just let me know and I will gladly just walk on by.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 12:09 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 05-04-2007 5:00 PM jar has replied
 Message 52 by nator, posted 05-04-2007 10:22 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 305 (399204)
05-04-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
05-04-2007 12:30 PM


Re: On why own guns.
As an aside, is it legal to discharge fire arms as well as to carry them?
LOL
There is little point of carrying them if you can't use them.
But, like almost everything else, use carries consequence.
If you use a gun inappropriately, you will be sanctioned.
If you use a gun, it better be clear that the use was protection, and that other options were not available.
But in my country the good guys are highly trained police or soldiers.
Sorry but that is a strawman. I probably have more firearms training and proficiency than most police, and very likely far more handgun training (and maybe even more long gun training) then most military.
The average policeman shoots during qualifying once or twice a year. I generally shoot at least once a week, and usually between 50 and a 100 rounds at a session.
Edited by jar, : fix raging zeros

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 12:30 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by kuresu, posted 05-04-2007 1:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 18 by petrophysics1, posted 05-04-2007 2:23 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 305 (399220)
05-04-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by kuresu
05-04-2007 1:51 PM


Re: On why own guns.
But in a country where the private citizen is not allowed to even have a gun, how is it a strawman?
It is not illegal to own a handgun or rifle in England. It's far more difficult and there are additional restrictions, but it can be done.
The facts of the discussion though concerned me, and why I carry, and why I consider myself to have a higher level of training and proficiency than the average policeman or soldier I might come in contact with.
To say that there are people who are less trained or areas where such training is more difficult is simply irrelevant to the questions regarding why I carry or enjoy shooting as a sport.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by kuresu, posted 05-04-2007 1:51 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Larni, posted 05-05-2007 3:00 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 305 (399229)
05-04-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
05-04-2007 12:30 PM


On 'accidental discharge'
Not your average Joe who is more likley to get his kids shot in house hold accidental discharge than stop a mugging in the street.
Sorry but somehow I missed this the first time through.
I would say that there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" and most of the gun owners I know would agree.
An unintended discharge is not an "accidental discharge" it is a "negligent discharge".
When a gun is fired, it is either intentional or negligent. Guns simply do not go off accidentally.
Part of gun ownership is knowing that you are responsible for your actions and there are a few very simple, very basic rules that you must follow.
If a gun goes off unexpectedly, you did not follow the rules.
The rules really are simple.
  • ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
  • ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
  • Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
  • ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
  • Know your target and what is beyond.
  • Know how to use the gun safely.
  • Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
  • Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
  • Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Larni, posted 05-04-2007 12:30 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 05-04-2007 4:07 PM jar has not replied
 Message 32 by Nuggin, posted 05-04-2007 5:34 PM jar has not replied
 Message 54 by nator, posted 05-04-2007 10:29 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 305 (399230)
05-04-2007 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by petrophysics1
05-04-2007 2:23 PM


Re: On why own guns.
You are most welcome.
Gun ownership is not a right that we should take lightly. Along with that right there is also responsibility.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by petrophysics1, posted 05-04-2007 2:23 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 305 (399257)
05-04-2007 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
05-04-2007 5:00 PM


Back to "accidental discharge."
What if she had that gun and it had accidentally discharged”something so many folks here claim as being a major problem?
There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge" IMHO.
There are intentional discharges and negligent discharges.
The rest of your post is only minimally related to guns and more to the incompetence of the police and social system.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 05-04-2007 5:00 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jon, posted 05-04-2007 5:58 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 305 (399279)
05-04-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by petrophysics1
05-04-2007 6:07 PM


Re: On concealed carry.
You need to understand that the reason for concealed carry has been explained to nuggin before.
When I carry concealed it is because the LAW requires I carry concealed as opposed to open carry. It also keeps those who are ignorant of guns and gun owners from being afraid. There really are no other valid reasons I can think of.
I do favor open carry though. Concealed carry has a hidden weakness, since the general public does not know who is carrying, they don't realize that gun owners are just ordinary people. We cut the grass, take out the trash, take the kids to school, go to church, go to work and buy groceries.
Because the law requires us to hide our guns away, the general publics view of gun owners is based on the image Hollywood and the news create. Unfortunately those images are far too often negative.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by petrophysics1, posted 05-04-2007 6:07 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by clpMINI, posted 05-04-2007 10:24 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 305 (399310)
05-04-2007 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by clpMINI
05-04-2007 10:24 PM


Re: Where you can and can't carry, concealed or not...
I don't know about the current laws in Virginia so I can't really address it, but a bank or just about any other facility is likely somewhat safer when I am in it then when I am not in it.
My being there and armed certainly does not increase the risks, I am not about to rob a bank. I also would be hesitant to try to stop a bank robbery. Money is just a place marker.
I believe that places are free to make such decisions just as I am free not to patronize an establishment that prohibited carry.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by clpMINI, posted 05-04-2007 10:24 PM clpMINI has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 305 (399429)
05-05-2007 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Larni
05-05-2007 3:00 PM


Re: On why own guns.
Sorry but there are target shooting clubs and you guys even field some Olympic shooters, unless I am mistaken.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Larni, posted 05-05-2007 3:00 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 305 (399591)
05-06-2007 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ringo
05-06-2007 7:56 PM


Re: Oh and another thing...
Frankly, most of the thread has been pretty boring.
First, we are discussing US policy.
In the US, ownership of guns is Constitutionally protected, a RIGHT.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The Second Amendment is pretty clear, with even less wiggle room then the Biblical Christians have, but as we know, they can make up many interpretations. Those pushing for gun restrictions show their similarity when they too try to make up their personal interpretations of what is actually, pretty clear language.
While those who wish to limit gun ownership can debate what the purpose of the first part of the Second Amendment refers to, the second half is absolutely clear, "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
So in the US, every citizen has the RIGHT to bear Arms.
Some have suggested that laws and restrictions can be passed at lower than the Federal level, and in fact, that is what has happened. States and even Cities have have passed local regulations imposing various limitations.
Those laws and regulations eventually, as intended under our system, get tested in the courts. Just recently, the local regulations in the District of Columbia were reviewed at the Supreme Court level and over turned.
Eventually the Supreme Court will hand down some clarification on just how the Second Amendment to the Constitution will be interpreted.
There were already many, many laws in place that prohibited what happened at VT. So the issue is "Given that gun ownership is a RIGHT, not a privilege such as driving, how do you prevent those who would misuse that right from having access to guns without infringing on the basic RIGHT for others?"
One way is by having some central database of information about each and every citizen in the US that will include near realtime information including health and mental health records as well as job evaluation information, that will be available in near realtime basis to those selling guns, police, educational facilities, employers and governments at all levels.
The questions that need to be asked, are: "are we willing to allow such information gathering, how can we make sure it is accurate, who should have access to it, and how can we limit how such information is used?"
Edited by jar, : my spall chiker failed me

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 305 (399680)
05-07-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by berberry
05-07-2007 10:16 AM


There is a fundamental difference in cars and guns. Owning a gun is a Constitutionally protected RIGHT.
While driving is a privilege, owning a gun is a Right.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by berberry, posted 05-07-2007 10:16 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by berberry, posted 05-07-2007 11:29 AM jar has replied
 Message 156 by Nuggin, posted 05-07-2007 2:56 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 305 (399683)
05-07-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by berberry
05-07-2007 11:29 AM


Well, yeah Jar, I've heard that argument before. But you can't justifiably compare cars to guns to make your case then cry "rights vs. privileges" just because your analogy wss carried further than you intended.
Free speech is a constitutionally-protected right, too, but in some cases you need a permit to exercise it.
Not quite true.
There are limits on how you can use free speech, and a very few limits on where you can use free speech.
The comparison between free speech and owning or carrying a gun is more like the following.
Laws limit using free speech inappropriately, for example shouting fire when there is no fire. There are also laws limiting the inappropriate use of guns.
No one has objected, as far as I can tell, to laws limiting the inappropriate use of guns.
There are also laws limiting where free speech can be exercised. Those laws get tested in the courts constantly. Some stand up, many do not. The current situation is the same where guns are concerned. For example, in most States it is illegal to carry a gun where alcoholic beverages are consumed. Carry is also limited in most government buildings.
Laws covering the inappropriate use of either free speech or guns already exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by berberry, posted 05-07-2007 11:29 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 160 of 305 (399741)
05-07-2007 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Modulous
05-07-2007 4:49 PM


Re: The Blame Game: Step Right Up; Take Your Shot!
Are you telling me that you do not want restrictions? You are happy for everyone to own high explosives and nuclear weapons?
I have absolutely no problem with people having high explosives, grenades, rocket launchers, machine guns, semi-automatic weapons, swords, spear, bows and arrows, even frisbees. I have no problems with folk owning most any personal arm.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Modulous, posted 05-07-2007 4:49 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 165 by Modulous, posted 05-08-2007 1:52 AM jar has replied

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