What is Liberal?

Well, it does appear that we do agree on something.However, the point I was making was in response to your claim that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. My point is that even if the founding fathers did intend the US to be a Christian nation, and even if they intended the US to be a Christian nation in perpetuity, their own ideology absolves us, today in the 21st century, of any obligation to follow their intentions.

I admit that I don't like "pro-choice" any more than I like "pro-life" (even though I will often use both terms). They are euphemisms, and I tend to distrust eupemisms.

The whole point with my post is that it is not emotional bluster. Pragmatism is the point. The emotional bluster and adherence to doctrine is your thing. As for being interested or understanding different frames of reference, well, that would be novel.Anyway no time to reply fully or participate further, going to Bristol for the weekend. No internet, no computer. AHHHHH!

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Apophenia:seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
Pareidolia:vague or random stimulus being perceived (mistakenly) as recognisable.Ramsey Theoryatterns may exist.Whoops!

Personally I'm not that keen on "pro-choice" but I don't see a better alternative ("pro-abortion" would be badly misleading).On the other hand "anti-abortion" is probably a more accurate description of the grouping than "pro-life". So I don't see any good reason for using "pro-life".

Why the hell would we want to "keep down" paganism or Islam? Or atheism, or Hindu, or Buddhism, or anything else?Are you REALLY advocating a "convert or you don't have any rights" mentality? Because that sounds awfully similar to the mindset of certain terrorists we've all come to know and hate. Hitler was a Christian (no, not a very good one), not a pagan, and used Christian rhetoric in his speaches and policies. What in God's name are you going on about?! You're not even making SENSE! Nobody is talking about beheading Christians! Nobody is even talking about doing ANYTHING to Christians! All we want is a government unaffected by any one religion so that ALL religions are protected. How the hell do you swing that over to "we might be beheaded or something even more gruesome?!"

Well, "pro-abortion" would describe me pretty well, but I agree that in general the term would be misleading. There are people who think that abortion is a poor choice to make, and even feel that abortion is immoral, but feel that the state has not right to interfere with a woman's decision in this matter. I wouldn't characterize these people as "pro-choice".Like it or not, the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are the words that are used to describe the two sides in this debate, and that is what the words are understood to mean. Unless I want to invent my own language I suppose that I have little choice but to use these terms myself in conversation. Unless I want to use the more accurate phrases "those in favor of the right to terminate a pregnancy" and "those opposed to the right to terminate a pregnancy".

No, no. It's part of the womans body until it is born, like her pancreas or heart. It shares her blood, etc. When it is born, it is no longer part of her body.And yes, it is miraculous.

Semantic nitpicking.Genetically human, yes. Existant as a seperate entity granted human rights? No.Besides, a fetus can't even comprehend the meaning of being human. It's brain doesn't function until later on in development. That's kind of the point.

Those are all perfectly good programs. I would agree that bearing the child and letting it be adopted is preferable to abortion.My DISTASTE for abortion does NOT, however, give you or me or anyone else the right to make it illegal. It is still the woman's right to decide what happens inside her body, and whether she is willing to undergo childbirth or not.

I'm really not sure that there are many people that are "pro-abortion" in the sense of thinking that an abortion is a good thing in itself. (Which is not the same as thinking that it might be the best, or least bad, option in some situations).For myself, I think that there are some cases where abortion is the best option, but in most cases it is only the choice issue and a pragmatic preference for regulated and legal abortions over unregulated illegal abortions that lead me to favour the current situation (as it is in the UK) or something very like it.

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I'm really not sure that there are many people that are "pro-abortion" in the sense of thinking that an abortion is a good thing in itself.

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Well, I do, and I suspect that there must a few people who agree. Although you do appear to be correct; it certainly isn't the most common opinion.

I'd like to try a definition of Liberal and Conservative.A Liberal thinks that he knows how to live his life better than you.A Conservative thinks that he knows how to live YOUR life better than you.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

A naive ideal? Promoting Christian theocracy is a naive ideal! We know EXACTLY what happens when Christianity is held up by the state! We had 1500 YEARS to watch as the Crusades were followed by the Inquisition was followed by witch trials! We know exactly what happens, Faith. The Founding Fathers did, too.You have literally no concept of the meaning of "freedom." You think it means "the ability to make your own choices, so long as they are choices I or the Lord God would approve of." If that was the kind of life God wanted for humanity, why did he even BOTHER giving us Free Will?!Freedom means the ability to make your own choices, restricted only when those choices injure a person's body, posessions, or right to their own freedom. That's what the Founding Fathers tried to set up with the Constitution. Freedom and Justice for ALL, not just Christians.

You know, that's pretty funny on the surface. But from the perspective of current politics, it's frighteningly accurate.

I humbly beg to differ. The right does not use lying terminology. They say what they mean. The left spins words to control the ideological meaning they want to get across.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-22-2005 12:59 PM