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Author Topic:   The Problem with Legalized Abortion
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4765 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 211 of 293 (444196)
12-28-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by ringo
12-28-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
That's a good idea too. Sex education and easy access to birth control are among the best proven methods of preventing abortion. The fact that anti-abortionists tend to oppose them is a further indication of insincerity.
Having been in that world I cannot agree with you here. They see sex outside of marriage as a sin, just as killing the fetus is a sin. It skews their thinking. They don't see supporting another sin as a valid way of preventing a sin. It is not that they are insincere in their desire to preventing the death of innocent unborn children.
Control of behavior is prevention of sin, and sin is the problem in the world. They cannot condone it and that traps them into trying to get laws that limit the perceived freedoms of women.
Edited by LinearAq, : spelt stuf rong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by ringo, posted 12-28-2007 2:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 12-28-2007 3:24 PM LinearAq has replied
 Message 219 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:37 PM LinearAq has not replied
 Message 239 by molbiogirl, posted 12-28-2007 6:48 PM LinearAq has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 212 of 293 (444197)
12-28-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
12-28-2007 3:13 PM


Re: politics
then maybe a person of rights should be defined as a human that can survive outside the womb as i suggested earlier.
it would appear that this is what the norm has been in granting a "birth certificate".
as long as a fetus requires the symbiotic relationship; the greater of the two in relation, holds and retains all rights?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 12-28-2007 3:13 PM ringo has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 213 of 293 (444199)
12-28-2007 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by LinearAq
12-28-2007 3:15 PM


LinearAq writes:
It is not that they are insincere in their desire to preventing the death of innocent unborn children.
I'd say self-delusion is a form of insincerity.
Control of behavior is prevention of sin, and sin is the problem in the world. They cannot condone it and that traps them into trying to get laws that limit the perceived freedoms of women.
Exactly. After all this time and noise and waste of ammunition, we've come to the point: It's about controlling the women.
Edited by Ringo, : Speling.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LinearAq, posted 12-28-2007 3:15 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by LinearAq, posted 12-31-2007 8:35 AM ringo has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 214 of 293 (444200)
12-28-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by tesla
12-28-2007 2:11 PM


Re: politics
how does that explain the fact that if you go to a catholic hospital as a pregnant woman they will not sacrifice the fetus to save your life?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 2:11 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 215 of 293 (444201)
12-28-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by LinearAq
12-28-2007 2:46 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
I am surprised you didn't ask me to pay for all her birth control so that there would be no fetus in the first place. Frankly, that is where the anti-abortion movement fails, IMHO.
because it's not about babies. it's about sex. they don't want people to have sex unless they're making babies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by LinearAq, posted 12-28-2007 2:46 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 216 of 293 (444202)
12-28-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2007 3:26 PM


Re: politics
it doesnt. it explains why abortion remains an unsolved political hell. (politically speaking in as much as general understood laws)
since there is no defined law, organizations have the freedom of their own ideals, and if you exist inside them, their law is final.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:26 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:33 PM tesla has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 217 of 293 (444203)
12-28-2007 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by tesla
12-28-2007 3:33 PM


Re: politics
what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:33 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 218 of 293 (444204)
12-28-2007 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2007 3:33 PM


Re: politics
how does that explain the fact that if you go to a catholic hospital as a pregnant woman they will not sacrifice the fetus to save your life? (quote by brennakimi)
this reply was in relation to post 200 right?
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:42 PM tesla has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 219 of 293 (444205)
12-28-2007 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by LinearAq
12-28-2007 3:15 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
Control of behavior is prevention of sin, and sin is the problem in the world. They cannot condone it and that traps them into trying to get laws that limit the perceived freedoms of women.
no. seeking to control the behaviors of people is limiting their freedom. period. just because they do it because they really, really love jesus doesn't make it any less the restriction of freedoms. and what part of
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
don't they understand? requiring people to practice your morality establishes your religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by LinearAq, posted 12-28-2007 3:15 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:41 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 220 of 293 (444207)
12-28-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2007 3:37 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
religeon aside, goverments must have law to protect order.
it is against the law to murder. i beleive thats where the political argument begins and the religeos argument ends.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:47 PM tesla has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 221 of 293 (444208)
12-28-2007 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by tesla
12-28-2007 3:36 PM


Re: politics
yeah, that's why i posted it as a reply to post 200.
however
why abortion remains an unsolved political hell. (politically speaking in as much as general understood laws)
since there is no defined law, organizations have the freedom of their own ideals, and if you exist inside them, their law is final.
makes no sense at all. abortion is not an "unsolved political hell. not at all. it is an established protection of medical privacy. there are specific allowances for medical regulation, and for the increasing interest of the state as the pregnancy advances. read the legal precedent; its not as confusing as you've been led to believe.
in the end, the only reason there is any dispute about it is that, instead of seeking to regulate the medical industry in order to make abortions safer, and improving sexual education in order to make abortions rarer, these people spend their time trying to outlaw it or kill all the abortion doctors if they can't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:36 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:46 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 222 of 293 (444209)
12-28-2007 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2007 3:42 PM


Re: politics
it is a political hell. its so powerful that most politicians aviod it so their career will survive.
there has not been an established law clearly defining abortion on the goverment level, and until one does, or probrobly even after one does, the right for and against will be argued.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:42 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:51 PM tesla has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 223 of 293 (444210)
12-28-2007 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by tesla
12-28-2007 3:41 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
religeon aside, goverments must have law to protect order.
how does abortion destroy the law?
it is against the law to murder. i beleive thats where the political argument begins and the religeos argument ends.
no. it's almost exclusively the religious who call abortion "murder". legally, abortion is protected as a right of medical privacy. that is, there is a small then increasing state interest in the potential life of the fetus which does not at any point surpass the woman's right to manage her health. no one should know a woman is pregnant unless a woman wants them to and no one should know if she decided not to endanger her organs unless she wants them to. it is only among the religious who believe ensoulment occurs at some invented point of "conception" who believe abortion is murder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:41 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:54 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4016 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 224 of 293 (444211)
12-28-2007 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by tesla
12-28-2007 3:46 PM


Re: politics
its so powerful that most politicians aviod it so their career will survive.
i've never heard a politician avoid the issue.
there has not been an established law clearly defining abortion on the goverment level, and until one does, or probrobly even after one does, the right for and against will be argued.
yes, there has.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
it's the fourth amendment. it was ratified in 1791. roe v wade applied this protection of rights to women's reproductive health. you've been lied to. we have a right to privacy. anything further than this is medical regulation.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:46 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by tesla, posted 12-28-2007 3:56 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1682 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 225 of 293 (444212)
12-28-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by macaroniandcheese
12-28-2007 3:47 PM


Re: Linear wants a conception certificate too!
abortion does not destroy the law. its the answere to your assertian that a free people are "unlimited" in their choices.
if a human embreyo is classified as life, then killing it is murder under current law.
religeos entities started the debate, yes, but they are makeing their point under political law. regardless of the origin of the argument, the political aspects are where its being pursued.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 3:47 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-28-2007 4:00 PM tesla has replied

  
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