Haggard Scandal

Don't forget that he also threw the meth away after purchasing it........... *cough-b.s.-cough*

You know, I've done everything from coke to LSD. I've also solicited sex from prostitutes on numerous occasions. Pretty bad stuff. Of course, that was all in my past and prior to meeting my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.Nonetheless, we all do stupid stuff and we sometimes feel the twinge of compulsion to repeat past mistakes. That's normal. And I think everyone can understand that inner-struggle. What people find insuperable, as well as they should, is the people who place themselves on a holier-than-thou totem, all the while engaging in the very sins they denounce. We all slip, we all fall, we all fall short. But Haggard not only made himself look awful for being an incredible hypocrite, but he disgraced his family, he disgraced the members of his church, he disgraced the entire Body of Christ, and disgraced Jesus. There is forgiveness for Haggard, but he'd first better recognize the trail of destruction behind him. Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Of course, Iano. Have no illusions about who I am. I'm nothing apart from Him. I don't even need to say that. You don't even have to know me to know that about me by the simple fact that I'm completely fallible. I'm merely pointing out that Haggard has alot of people to face up to, but most importantly, he has to face God-- a terrifying prospect for us all. I guess only the spotless Lamb has any right to say a word.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

That's wonderful, Shraf. Alot of people have been ravaged by those very things. Could've been me. I didn't grow up under any strict upbringing. My parents were push-overs. I did whatever I wanted for the most part. That was part of the problem. First of all, nobody is wagging their finger at you or anyone else. If someone gives their opinion on how they feel about God's Law, then that's our opinion, (not that I speak on behalf of Faith or Iano or anyone else). You can do whatever you want. But there are consequences. Haggard found that out the hard way, as I imagine we've all been spanked by life at some point. Thirdly, judging us as worse than anyone else is a dangerous thing to do because it makes you the judge on what's better or worse behavior. That's kind of like saying we aren't sinners because when compared to Jeffery Dahmer, we're all saints. That's just not how it works. The reality is we've all wronged. Fourthly, and in my opinion, the most important factor, Iano, Faith and I told you personal things about ourselves that we didn't have to share. We told you those things because they were wrong and we fully admit fault and thank God for His grace and mercy. Its a great testimony, and I'm glad that Faith and Iano shared that with us. The sole difference is when a person refuses to admit fault or to play-down the things they've done. Its the pride of refusing to acknowledge one's sins. That's the noticeable difference that I see.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Yikes! A Biblical precedent for sleeping with a man's wife? Did you not actually commit the act? That couldn't have been a good feeling.... for either of you. I hear you. I guess there is no way of finding him again. Even if he lived two doors down you still might not recognize him to tell him that you were sorry for that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know who they are or how they live, but I'd venture to say that they are innocent victims of his trysts. They must be in a state of confusion.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Well, I think we all knew that would happen. The timing of the scandal couldn't possibly have been coincidental. Just remember that they're sinners too, and that we aren't measured by Christians, we are measured by Christ. I disagree with you here. He is a hypocrite, but then again, we've been a bit hypocritical in life. That's why only the spotless Lamb is able to judge us. Its okay for you to be angry at the political motivation for the story and its okay for you to be upset at Haggard for blackening our eyes by default. I would say just don't forget that we aren't measured by Christians, but by Christ.I try to disassociate my political beliefs from my spiritual beliefs. Jesus isn't a Conservative and He isn't a Liberal. He might be a Moderate though.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

You don't think he's reaping the consequences? He's been virtually excommunicated. He'll never pastor again, he might lose his marriage over it, everyone will look upon on him as the Christian who hypocritically slept with gay prostitutes while doing meth. I think that's pretty significant. And it may get worse with time. So, you're saying that if smoked Meth and had sexual escapades with homosexual prostitutes in moderation it would have been better? also, you don't think his behavior is accountable to his family or his church? He's let alot of people down and have broken the hearts of those closest to him. I think that's the very problem. There's a reason why the Bible uses leprosy to symbolize sin. Leprosy starts off as an insignificant spot on the skin. After time, it grows bigger and becomes uncontrollable. Pretty soon you have no feeling left in your body as the disease has ravaged your nerve endings. Sin works in the same way. It starts out as a harmless toke, a little sex, one beer. Nobody becomes a killer for no reason. Nobody becomes a rapist for no reason. Nobody becomes a drunk without that first sip. Nobody can get to sixy miles an hour without first hitting each successive speed first. Sin works the same way. After a while, you keep doing it, you lose all sense of right and wrong and become calloused to it. By then, we might find ourselves in total denial. The wages of sin are death. I believe that verse. I've seen it first hand. I agree with that, and from a worldly view I know exactly what you're saying. There is certainly some measure to that as even Solomon asks God not to judge him on his youthful indiscretions. In order to be moral, one would first have to live by an established set of parameters. And if we all march to our own beat who then can fault me on anything?

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

A radical liberal? Jesus undoubtedly was anti-greed and wealth, not buisness. Jesus was a carpenter. He wasn't paid in hugs. There is nothing wrong with working for your earnings. His own parables speak about it. Uh-huh. But not one liberal has admitted even one sin in here and three conservatives have offered that information unsolicited. And you also forgot the last part of that verse. "Go and sin no more." Again, Jesus isn't a political figure, He's the Son of God. And yes, Conservatives shouldn't lose sight of that. Right. I'm still not seeing how these liberal traits or conservative traits.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

I don't really know what the Religious Right means. I assume it to mean those like Falwell who politicize their religion. I would say, who cares what they say. Shraf, give me a break. I don't tell you "turn or burn, you and your homo friends!" All that you and I have ever done is have discussions about our personal beliefs. My beliefs include what Yahweh says. Aside from arguing my points about theology and philosophy, I don't think I've done anything so egregious to where I'm demanding that you believe what I believe. If you don't want to believe that a man named Yeshua came as the Savior, you don't have to. But woe to anyone that didn't share the information just to be 'politically correct.' If you aren't comfortable sharing that much information with almost perfect strangers, that's fine. It does offer a catharsis though. Also, if you think that people are going to use that against you some time down the line, I can assure you that I would never do that to you. I can't speak for everyone else, but that is off-limits for me. I would be too honored that you shared something so personal. Betrayal of that confidence would be unacceptable for me.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

You still don't get it... This, like Theater of the Mind, was OT to be talking about moral relativism. I shouldn't have gone down that road. I have no longer engaged in the debate because it was OT. But the point that i made in there still stands. What you and almost everyone is seemingly incapable of understanding is that if you are a moral relativist, then morals don't actually exist-- even the ones you maintain. Yes, I believe even the staunchest of atheists have moral beliefs. I'm merely showing them how their own beliefs are always subject to amendment at their whim in constant exoneration-- in other words, there is a perpetual excuse for why their behavior didn't 'actually' go against their own morals. Haggard is trying to do the same thing. He's trying to lessen the blow. Aside from which, if we all march to our drummer, then none of us have the right to criticize anyone else's moral standard. If there is not a consensus on basic precepts, there is no duality in society. "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this?" - 1^st Corinthians 5:1-2I can recognize people by their fruit, as most people can. Everyone of those people, to include Haggard, I have sensed that they were misguided at best, and phonies at worst. If you may recall, I was poking a bit of fun at Haggard on the EvC Halloween Thread. I've always sensed there was something amiss with him. And the Bakkers, as well as half of the staff at TBN and CBN, its the same. I don't like it. Its creepy to me and I think they do far more damage to Christ than to offer an actual ministry. Some people may disagree, but I feel strongly about that. Clinton is about as Christian as the Bakkers were. Just saying, "I'm a Christian!" doesn't make it so. That's like me going around claiming that I'm an Asian woman. Just because I profess it doesn't create the reality."Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers." -Matthew 7:22-23 People tend to adopt Christian beliefs or finally take it seriously during bad times. That kind of goes without saying. Haggard won't be hung by his own standard, but God's. Its comfortable for those who have no identifiable standard to sit pretty on their high horse in piety. You can never pin accountability to them because they never commit to any set of values to begin. Their actions are always justified, somehow. And they'll just play the semantics game with you in order to absolve themselves from any backsliding from their own standards. And they speak derisively and point out the failures of those who do follow a palpable set of standards while they sit on the judgement seat.However, it shouldn't surprise me that you would relish in Haggards self-defeat. No, that's not a jab at you. Its natural to feel disgust at hypocrisy. I wonder how often we feel that for ourselves when we are hypocritical. The fact that such a powerful, universal inclination exists only solidifies the notion that we are imparted with some moral understanding in our heart.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

I agree that my commentary was OT and inappropriate at that time. Problem is, I don't see anyone condemning the other participant. I agree that moral relativism makes no sense, nor can the relativist have any sense of meaning continuing to ascribe to such cloaked beliefs. You seem to understand it perfectly. I doubt legality had anything to do with it... Meth is illegal and so is soliciting sex. You're right. No one would care if it were an atheist, nor would anyone know about it. The media doesn't care when atheists do that. It wouldn't make headlines. Pretty much. I have no doubt he's tasting how bitter it is. And time heals some wounds, but public scandals like this follow a man the rest of his life. Forgiveness can happen for Haggard, no question about it, but the consequences of sin can remain for the term of our natural lives.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

No, I don't see your point. If I had to guess, you are trying to define what I mean by moral relativism. The argument over whether morals are absolute or relative is not to identify which set of beliefs adhere to the absolute standard. That is a matter of speculation. The argument is whether we recognize the necessity of their existence. If you argue that morals are truly relative then you have no reason to argue with my belief that they are absolute. In essence, you have no argument.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

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Haggard won't be hung by his own standard, but God's.

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For with the judgement you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

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Good point.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Says you. Its the great dichotomy. We have to follow God's Law, and yet, we are incapable of keeping it entirely which is our need for Jesus. It happens so that God always gets the glory no matter what we do. At the same time, how could a consensus come about concerning laws if there was not first a universal understanding of right and wrong? Truth becomes some obscure concept, rather than Truth®? What meaning does it serve if not in an absolute sense? One must first have an absolute concept to even come to a relative understanding about anything.

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Aside from which, if we all march to our drummer, then none of us have the right to criticize anyone else's moral standard.

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But if morals were truly relative, what compels to care about other people's version of morality? Why do we try to get people to conform to our standards? If it were really relative, we should care less about anything. Oh dear, this thread is starting to degenerate before our eyes. Somebody else has said something similar in another thread some time ago while we were arguing morals. He said that laws bear no reflection to morals. That's absolutely absurd. Human law is directly attributed to our concept of right and wrong. And yet, if morals are really relative, some people's relativity is more absolute than mine being that I had no say in the formation of laws. "Because he wants to".... Why does he want to be honest? What does honesty even mean without something to be True® to begin with!? Being honest means you tell the truth. There must have been some standard to begin with in order to understand if something is true, right? A profound question of epistemic proportion. Its like Pilate asked, "what is Truth?" Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : add italics

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5

Brilliantly written... I couldn't have articulated it so well.

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"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2^nd Corinthians 10:4-5