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Author Topic:   An Astrology Discussion
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 16 of 32 (369971)
12-15-2006 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 4:14 PM


quote:
So what would you say if I could predict people's signs by matching descriptions of the signs to the person's personality?
Well, if it was just you able to do it, it doesn't mean anything.
If 200 people could do it more accurately than chance would predict, then that would be interesting.
And, let's not forget that you said that the descriptions weren't 100% accurate.
Well, how inaccurate were they? I mean, I think that almost everybody can exhibit many, many personality traits.
And we'd have to get quite specific and quantifiable with the descriptions for them to mean much, as well.
And, what about people in different stages of life, before or after therapy, or even brain injury?
I mean, I have a much different personality in many ways now than when I was 18.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2006 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2006 4:58 PM nator has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 32 (369973)
12-15-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 3:15 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
I mean, who does like being pressured to take part in a conversation that they don't understand or don't care about?
My point was (and I do so love having to explain what my point was ) that I don't have to be pressured to shoot my mouth off when I don't know what I'm talking about. My point was that astrology was completely out to lunch on that point. My point was that "too general" is no excuse when astrology's prediction is diametrically opposed to reality.
The book I was reading from was better than that. I wish I had it with me and could scan some pages into this thread.
Here's a better idea: You can find my birthdate in my profile. Use all the resources you can muster and decide what my personality "should" be, horoscopically. Then our loyal readers, who know me so well, can decide whether or not it's accurate.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2006 3:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2006 4:50 PM ringo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 32 (369984)
12-15-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
12-15-2006 4:23 PM


My point was (and I do so love having to explain what my point was ) that I don't have to be pressured to shoot my mouth off when I don't know what I'm talking about. My point was that astrology was completely out to lunch on that point. My point was that "too general" is no excuse when astrology's prediction is diametrically opposed to reality.
Well, if I read a bunch of people's personality descriptions that were accurate and then one that was totally wrong, I wouldn't consider that exception to invalidate all the correct ones.
Here's a better idea: You can find my birthdate in my profile. Use all the resources you can muster and decide what my personality "should" be, horoscopically. Then our loyal readers, who know me so well, can decide whether or not it's accurate.
ok.
Whoa, you're old...
quote:
Traditional
Cancer Traits
Emotional and loving
Intuitive and imaginative
Shrewd and cautious
Protective and sympathetic
On the dark side....
Changeable and moody
Overemotional and touchy
Clinging and unable to let go
source

Its pretty hit or miss for you. But, then again, I wouldn't consider this one a very good description. It seems pretty general and I don't really like the one-word descriptions.
Maybe the descriptions don't work for everyone and that they are just a general trend for people's personalities. Also, there could be other factors that determine your personality that could outweight the affects of the time of year you were born in.
But now I'm defending Astrology I don't really think its real, I just think that there seems to be some correlation with your personality and the time of year you were born. If that were true, it would make astrology look better even if astrology was all bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 12-15-2006 4:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 32 (369985)
12-15-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by nator
12-15-2006 4:22 PM


Well, if it was just you able to do it, it doesn't mean anything.
It wouldn't be me, it would be the descriptions I was reading from.
Well, how inaccurate were they? I mean, I think that almost everybody can exhibit many, many personality traits.
And we'd have to get quite specific and quantifiable with the descriptions for them to mean much, as well.
And, what about people in different stages of life, before or after therapy, or even brain injury?
I mean, I have a much different personality in many ways now than when I was 18.
Damn, you'd really be getting down to the gnat's ass...
Perhaps there is an affect of the time of the year you were born on your personality. Big life changes could certainly outweight the affects from the time of year, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. I don't think we have the means to get down to the gnat's ass, scientifically, about the effects. Its something people have been looking into for thousands of years and there seems to be some correlation. Whether or not astrology is accurate in the cause, I don't know (but leaning towards not), but if the effect is there, I'd like to discuss some possibilities for the cuase.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by nator, posted 12-15-2006 4:22 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by nator, posted 12-15-2006 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 32 (369989)
12-15-2006 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 4:58 PM


Well, if it was just you able to do it, it doesn't mean anything.
quote:
It wouldn't be me, it would be the descriptions I was reading from.
But it's people who have to decide how the descriptions of the personality traits manifest in the people they supposedly know, and also decide if they are accurate or not.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 21 of 32 (369995)
12-15-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 4:50 PM


From your own source:
LIKES
Hobbies - nope
Romance - nope
Children - yup
Home and Country - yup and *shrug*
Parties - hate 'em
Not much of a batting average.
And note that Ross Perot and Captain Kangaroo share my birthdate.
(ABE: Make that "birthday", I guess.)
I just think that there seems to be some correlation with your personality and the time of year you were born.
It doesn't seem so to me.
There are so many factors that can effect out personalities: where we are born, the climate, the culture; our family environment and history. If when we were born had any effect at all, it would likely be drowned out by the other factors.
Edited by Ringo, : Added extra pedantry.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 22 of 32 (370003)
12-15-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 1:02 PM


Gravity Obviously Not Related
Catholic Scientist writes:
Astrology attributes it to extraterrestrial activity, you know, planets n’stuff. That seems paranormal to me. How could something extraterrestrial affect your personality? Because of its gravity?
It can't be due to gravity because such forces are incredibly insignificant. This is because the force of gravity is equal to the mass of each object (m1, m2) times the universal gravitational constant (y)and the unit vector directed from m1 to m2 (r1) divided by the radius between m1 and m2 squared.
F=-y(m1)(m2)r1/(r)(r)
Obviously the distance to a planet, be it Mars or Pluto (is Pluto still a planet?, has Sedna moved into the house of Gemini?) is so great, dividing any number by the square of distance is going to make F ridiculously small. Particularly since the gravitational constant (= 6.67300 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2) is also very small.
Way back in 1979, I was introduced to gravitational methods in geophysics. According to this science the only measurable gravitational influences at any point on the surface of the Earth are due to latitude, topography, elevation, Earth tides, and variations in subsurface density. Earth tides are of course due to the moon and sun, the moon because it is much closer and the sun because it is so much more massive. Have you ever seen a tide chart that factored in any planets?
Therefore if any effect on humans were due to gravity, one would need a chart that also factored in latitude, topography, elevation, and subsurface density. It would take a geophysicist just to plot your astrological chart!
Of course, I have never met a geophysicist that believed in astrology so one may have to get Baumgardner or channel Morris to get an accurate reading as they seem to be (or were) game for supporting any anti-scientific cult behavior.
Edited by anglagard, : Eek, astronomical replaced by astrological chart, lucky im still alive

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 32 (370042)
12-15-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 1:02 PM


Quo vadis, causation?
Assuming that the time of year that you are born in has some affect on how you turn out, what do you think causes it? Is there any scientific explanation we could come up with that could explain the phenomenon? Or is the scientific view that there is no affect at all?
Perhaps the causation goes the other way. Personality traits are to some extent inherited. Perhaps fecundity and/or sex drive are somewhat seasonal. Then mating pairs of Homo sapiens (is this terminology getting you a little excited?) will tend to have offspring in certain months and pass on to them certain personality traits giving a zodiacal vs. personality trait correlation. As mentioned, one possible test for this would be Northern vs. Southern hemisphere comparisons. The biggest problem with all this is that determinations of personality are very subjective: have several friends write a description of what they think your personality characteristics are and include your own description and I suspect you will find a great diversity of opinion (and you might also find you have fewer friends than you thought). There are 'scientific' personality profile questionnaires, but I personally would have about as much faith in those as I have in astrology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-15-2006 1:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 24 of 32 (370119)
12-16-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
12-15-2006 3:59 PM


So what happens now that Pluto isn't a planet anymore?
I doubt that it would matter in astrology. The Sun and Moon are also refered to as "planets" in that system.
Sounds like a question for the astrology newsgroup. I would guess that there is one.
PS
Oops! Had I said ten components? Make that eleven. I forgot about the ascendent.
Edited by dwise1, : PS

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 32 (371136)
12-20-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by anglagard
12-15-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Gravity Obviously Not Related
It can't be due to gravity because such forces are incredibly insignificant.
Agreed, and I'm aware of how incredible that insignificance is (many many orders of magnitutude).
Have you ever seen a tide chart that factored in any planets?
Nope. (Although, admittedly, I've never seen a tide chart)
Therefore if any effect on humans were due to gravity, one would need a chart that also factored in latitude, topography, elevation, and subsurface density. It would take a geophysicist just to plot your astrological chart
I wonder what effects can be had when there are multiple plantet alignments, we could calculate the force of gravity from the alignment, which would most likely still be insignificant. I think that the astrologists think that there is something magical going on up there that is causing it all. My question on gravity was somewhat rhetorical with a touch of sarcastic.
For future reference, I'm well aware of gravity's formula, but thanks anyways for being so helpfull and informative.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 32 (371146)
12-20-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by AnswersInGenitals
12-15-2006 8:16 PM


Re: Quo vadis, causation?
Quo vadis, causation?
Yes. I think there IS is some correlation that astrology has picked up on, I just don't think that its{astrology's} causes are the actual ones.
Personality traits are to some extent inherited.
For sure. I'm bascally a male version of my mother, WRT personality.
Perhaps fecundity and/or sex drive are somewhat seasonal. Then mating pairs of Homo sapiens will tend to have offspring in certain months and pass on to them certain personality traits giving a zodiacal vs. personality trait correlation.
Hmmmm, perhaps....
This is more the kind of discussion I was looking for. I don't believe astrology has it right, but there does seem to be some correlation
biggest problem with all this is that determinations of personality are very subjective
But there are some personality traits that people could be said to poses or not.
There are 'scientific' personality profile questionnaires, but I personally would have about as much faith in those as I have in astrology..
Really!?, Why is that? I took an online personality profile and the results were really good. Actually, I think I learned some stuff about myself.
have several friends write a description of what they think your personality characteristics are and include your own description and I suspect you will find a great diversity of opinion (and you might also find you have fewer friends than you thought).
Well, 'friends' or Friends. I mean, my true friends know me well and I think they'd have similiar opinions (that I'm an asshole ), but aquaintances, sure, there'd be diferences but that'd be because they don't know me well enough. As far as my actual personality, aside from other people's subjectivity on it, I'd say its pretty objective.
(is this terminology getting you a little excited?)
Nah, I'm fairly well fucked.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 32 (371148)
12-20-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Gravity Obviously Not Related
(Although, admittedly, I've never seen a tide chart)
Here's one!
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.maineharbors.com/marhar07.htm

This message is a reply to:
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nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 32 (386984)
02-25-2007 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 1:02 PM


hmmm why haven't I seen this thread? Owell... Well, I love astrology.. I often document people and their personalities and remember their sign... It's kind of like my own experiment. I believe in signs, I am a taurus... My rising sign is Cancer, and my moon sign is libra... it all goes by the time, date and year you were born... very detailed and interesting if you get deep in to it. I guess I have to keep documenting and write a book someday on my own personal experiences... I find it often interesting how some people, and their signs can only portray the negative aspects of their sign... Maybe it's because if you have a fire moon and water rising... it's like a battle within! haha

This message is a reply to:
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 29 of 32 (386999)
02-25-2007 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
12-15-2006 1:02 PM


What you are doing is
forbidden in scripture. A man should consult his God, not wizards that peep or signs in the sky. You either believe that, or you don't.
quote:
In Jeremiah 10:2 we read, "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them." The prophet goes on to equate astrology with idolatry and describes the vain way in which the heathen seek to please and follow their astrological gods.
The clearest command against astrology is found in Deuteronomy 18:9 as the children of Israel were about to enter the Promised Land, God issued a sever warning against the practices of the heathen in that territory. One such warning was against any Israelites becoming an "observer of times," which is an Astrologer. This practice, God declares, is "an abomination unto the LORD".
Jesus said in Matthew 6:25 that we should "take no thought" for what might happen in the future. He declared that the necessities of life would be provided by our heavenly Father if we seek him first. Man does not need to know what lies ahead if he faces tomorrow with the help of God. The Christian may not know the future, but he does know the One who holds the future in his hands.
The guesswork predictions of astrology should hold no interest for believers who follow "a more sure word of prophecy." (2 Peter 1:21)
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY ABOUT OCCULT, WITCHCRAFT, SEANCES, NEW AGE, ASTROLOGY, REINCARNATION, PSYCHIC POWER, CALLING SPIRITS, FORTUNE TELLING, OUIJA BOARD, CRYSTAL BALL, TAROT CARD, PALMISTRY, IDOL, DEMON
The link is clarifying.
Consulting the stars is willingness to be deceived.

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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 30 of 32 (387001)
02-25-2007 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2006 12:35 PM


Re: Quo vadis, causation?
quote:
Nah, I'm fairly well fucked.
I should have read this first. Could have saved myself some time. But then, you never know, eh?

This message is a reply to:
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