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Author Topic:   Sarah Palin & Intelligent Design + Creationism
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5064 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 31 of 51 (481661)
09-12-2008 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by obvious Child
09-10-2008 8:15 PM


Go Palin (sarcasm)
War with Russia Sounds like a plan:
http://news.yahoo.com/...politico/20080912/pl_politico/13393
Abuse the power of the governorship go Troopergate:
Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal - Wikipedia
Support and then recant support for bridges to 'nowhere':
Gravina Island Bridge - Wikipedia
Its not even an issue of McSame...its more of an issue I can't stomach hypocrisy, warmongering, power abuse, and downright lies...

This message is a reply to:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 32 of 51 (481664)
09-12-2008 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Discreet Label
09-12-2008 1:52 AM


Warning - At best, working the fringes of the topic theme
The topic is narrowly defined to be Sarah Palin and ID and Creationism (Wow! - That's even the topic title).
It's not a clear cut thing, about how far the topic should stray from the defined theme into themes of Palin and other issues, especially non-religious ones. I personally think another Coffee House topic along the lines of "Sarah Palin and the non-creationism issues" would be a good thing.
If such a topic is started, please also link back to this topic.
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 33 of 51 (481824)
09-12-2008 8:29 PM


Anyone read the new comments made by Palin about going to war with Russia?
Seriously.
Crazy talk. Even the idea of sanctions is pretty insane. Removing hydrocarbons from the market from that large of a source will instantly send the US into a deep recession.
McCain should have picked Romney for economics. Palin is a joke when it comes to money.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 51 (481829)
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Palin With America And Americans
Sarah Palin identifies with nearly all of America's founders, most of America's statesmen, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and the vast majority of Americans over the centuries and decades on ID and creationism, so what's the big deal??
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 36 by Granny Magda, posted 09-12-2008 9:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 37 by obvious Child, posted 09-12-2008 9:46 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 38 by Rahvin, posted 09-12-2008 9:48 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 39 by bluescat48, posted 09-12-2008 11:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 40 by Discreet Label, posted 09-13-2008 3:34 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 35 of 51 (481830)
09-12-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Sarah Palin identifies with nearly all of America's founders, most of America's statesmen, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and the vast majority of Americans over the centuries and decades on ID and creationism, so what's the big deal??
The problem with that is ID is a recent political movement associated largely with the Dyscovery Institute.
The founders were either creationists or more generally, deists; there was no need to disguise their beliefs in those days. They were worlds apart from what we now know as fundamentalists. For one, they believed in the Enlightenment and sought to form a government that would not turn into a theocracy.
Why fundamentalists, in part under the dishonest guise of ID, are trying to reverse the Enlightenment and overturn the constitution is beyond me.
But in either case, Palin is not leading the fundamentalist pack, rabidly pushing for ID or other forms of creationism. (Sorry.)
Edited by Coyote, : theist should have been deist; change made

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 36 of 51 (481831)
09-12-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Sarah Palin identifies with nearly all of America's founders, most of America's statesmen, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and the vast majority of Americans over the centuries and decades on ID and creationism, so what's the big deal??
Sarah Palin lives in the 21st century. Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln didn't. Over the past century and a half, biology has made one or two teensy little advances in knowledge. Sensible people need no longer make do with bronze age explanations for life on Earth. The idea that Palin prefers said bronze age explanations to one of the best evidenced theories in science causes many people to doubt her judgement, understandably in my view.
Science is important and increasingly so. Electing leaders who have proved themselves unable to understand it isn't a wise move.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
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obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4116 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 37 of 51 (481832)
09-12-2008 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Because for America to succeed in a globalized economy we need to be the best at research and design and intellectual creation.
Creationism and Intelligent Design teach thinking that is directly contrary to the methods of thinking we need as a country to thrive. Therefore they pose a problem to our quality of life, GDP and status in the world over the long term. If the US, or frankly any developed country wants to maintain it's level of wealth, it has to move away from labor intensive manufacturing and into intellectual services and R&D. This is an issue of America's future economy.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 38 of 51 (481834)
09-12-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Sarah Palin identifies with nearly all of America's founders, most of America's statesmen, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and the vast majority of Americans over the centuries and decades on ID and creationism, so what's the big deal??
First, Jefferson? Are you serious? Rewrote the Gospels removing any and all supernatural happenings and miracles leaving only what he considered valid moral lessons Jefferson?!
Somehow, I doubt he favored Creationism.
Second, stop referring to the Founding Fathers and their intentions as infallible. Most of them supported slavery, and we know that was wrong. Whether the Founding Fathers supported Creationism or not is irrelevant. It's a classic appeal to authority - just because they were the Founding Fathers has no bearing on current policy. Hell, the Founding Fathers themselves didn't even agree on much!
Stop your retarded hero-worship of American historical figures. This one-sided bullshit is tiring - our Constitution is a pretty decent framework, but we've already had to amend it to allow women to vote and to disallow slavery.
Further, America is not a democracy! It never was. It's a Constitutional Republic, and that means sometimes we have to make unpopular laws to prevent the tyranny of the majority. In this case, the majority of Christians is threatening the rights of non-Christians by trying to force Creationism into publically funded schools, a blatant violation of teh Establishment Clause of the Constitution. This is the entire reason we aren't a democracy! The Constitution and our system of elected representatives with checks and balances invalidates your entire populist hero-worshiping argument and throws your opinions as well as those of Sarah Palin into the dung heap.

This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 39 of 51 (481838)
09-12-2008 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Sarah Palin identifies with nearly all of America's founders, most of America's statesmen, Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and the vast majority of Americans over the centuries and decades on ID and creationism, so what's the big deal??
Sarah Palin identifies with George W Bush & Ken Huckabee at somewhat to McCain. As to the founding Fathers, yeah there were probably a few hard core Theists but for the most part Deists & Agnostics.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5064 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 40 of 51 (481846)
09-13-2008 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Buzsaw
09-12-2008 8:55 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Um I'm not even sure how you can even say Palin identifies with the founders.
I mean in what way, you talk about foreign policy Washington had no interest in foreign entanglements yet Palin is all for running around Russia and Georgia.
In terms of identifying with Jefferson Palin is definitely not a small government kind of person. She had expanded Wasilla's government hugely through funding that ridiculously overpriced and under-researched community center. She has also encouraged taxing of oil whilst building a massive pipeline through Alaska. None of which are even close to gyving with Jefferson's ideal small farmer government kind of life style. Also Palin definitely would not have agreed with Jefferson extremely temporal/secular view of he bible.
Lastly, Lincoln was far more interested in preserving the Union then partisan style politics. This would be demonstrated especially by Lincoln's stressed belief in the Union instead of North versus South. Lincoln as a president did everything he could to keep the Union together, even so far as the Emancipation Proclamation which while credited with abolishing slavery is extremely inaccurate. At most it abolished slavery in states that were rebelling against the Federal government, so border states that were on the side of the Union were not affected by the emancipation proclamation. On the contrary Palin promotes politics that are hard line conservative style poltics with little if no give.

This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 41 of 51 (481857)
09-13-2008 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Discreet Label
09-13-2008 3:34 AM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
to further your point about the proclomation--it was designed to keep Britain and the rest of Europe out of our civil war, thus enabling the Union to win. Had Europe joined the south, Virginia would have last voted for US president in 1860.
Further, I doubt most of the current GOP could stomach Lincoln, as the GOP then was one of the more liberal third-parties out there.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 51 (481876)
09-13-2008 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rahvin
09-12-2008 9:48 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
Rahvin writes:
First, Jefferson? Are you serious? Rewrote the Gospels removing any and all supernatural happenings and miracles leaving only what he considered valid moral lessons Jefferson?!
Somehow, I doubt he favored Creationism.
Yes Jefferson, the president who attended Sunday School and church in the White House; who saw to it that the New England Primer (all Biblical) was the beginning reader for the kiddies; who had the Bible and Watts Hymnal in all of the public schools; who used the Marine Band for the music in the White House Church services and who made pro-Christian statements with impunity.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 51 (481877)
09-13-2008 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Discreet Label
09-13-2008 3:34 AM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
What has any of that got to do with ID and creationism?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Discreet Label, posted 09-13-2008 3:34 AM Discreet Label has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Discreet Label, posted 09-13-2008 12:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 51 (481878)
09-13-2008 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by bluescat48
09-12-2008 11:27 PM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
bluescat48 writes:
Sarah Palin identifies with George W Bush & Ken Huckabee at somewhat to McCain. As to the founding Fathers, yeah there were probably a few hard core Theists but for the most part Deists & Agnostics.
What? How about some documentation that most founders were Deists and Agnostics? I'm sure you are aware that founders included a lot more folks than presidents, not to mention that the presidents were mostly theists.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by bluescat48, posted 09-12-2008 11:27 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5064 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 45 of 51 (481897)
09-13-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
09-13-2008 8:43 AM


Re: Palin With America And Americans
X.x sorry about that right after the comments I had fallen asleep without noticing it.
By conservative principles I talk about the culture of 'gut-thinking' that has characterized the GOP in the last several years. The GOP push for support of things like teaching creationism or ID in schools as science when they don't and can't be considered science. Both those 'sciences' can't even draw on a body of support any of the most basic physical phenomenon i.e. say the study of energy and work or electricity. The notion that you can toss out reasoning and evidence for a 'gut-supported' idea is plain old absurd??
Consider this if the trend continues of supporting 'gut' over 'mind' you end up promoting a culture of impulsive decision making. What happens when if people start consistently thinking about the here at this moment for the nation, their schools or their government?? What happens to the future of this nation when all those pieces of careful planning are abridged by short-term planning?? Democrats in a lot of ways have been forced to go along with it because of the off-chance they'd lose voting blocs, much in the same way it used to be if the three big airline carriers ever changed prices the other two were either forced to (if lowered, to prevent loss of passengers) or match them (if raised, to increase profits).
Truth be told we are already seeing the affects of it in the nation's infrastructure its crumbling roads and vulnerable electricity grid... who is going to fix the infrastructure when people no longer believe in basic science? At least for now kids aren't getting taught 'ID' or 'creationism' useless garbage to supplement their already insane amount of material they should know.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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