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Author Topic:   Quitting smoking?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 76 of 140 (723227)
03-27-2014 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by kjsimons
03-27-2014 8:12 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
I find it odd that they neither name the study nor provide a link to it. At any rate, you've yet to show that there more nicotine in the exhaled vapor of an electronic cigarette than there is in a tomato, yet you are up in arms about e-cigs. You are reacting as if e-cigs are actively killing you, yet no one has a clue as to what is actually in the vapor.
but more study is needed to determine if this is harmful.
Why wait for study results? You've already determined it to be harmful.
Explain how your argument differs from that of the "vaccines cause autism" argument?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by kjsimons, posted 03-27-2014 8:12 PM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by kjsimons, posted 03-27-2014 8:42 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 81 by Jon, posted 03-27-2014 10:47 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 825
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 77 of 140 (723230)
03-27-2014 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
03-27-2014 8:25 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
You ask why wait to see if its harmful, why not ask the question why not see if its harmful before allowing it as it is a toxin? It seems reasonable to me.
I have not said anywhere that it is harmful, just that nicotine is a poison and so it may be better to err on the side of caution until we know more about the risk.
Well, vaccines aren't poisonous and aren't being released into the air for others to breathe. There is a definite public heath benefit to vaccines (i.e. lots of people don't die). And all the dozens of studies done have shown no increased risk of autism due to vaccines. So it differs a hell of a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 03-27-2014 8:25 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by hooah212002, posted 03-27-2014 8:53 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 78 of 140 (723231)
03-27-2014 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by kjsimons
03-27-2014 8:42 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
why not ask the question why not see if its harmful before allowing it as it is a toxin?
I could ask that, yes. I have actually asked that, indeed. Howevre, that is not the topic of this line of discussion and is not the tact you are following.
the difference is: I acknowledge that it is essentially just water vapor and dissipates almost immediately. No one is blowing it in my face (I'd blow my fist in their face if they did), so why would I get up in arms about it? As long as I don't smell it, I don't really care.
I have not said anywhere that it is harmful, just that nicotine is a poison and so it may be better to err on the side of caution until we know more about the risk.
No, you've not said that you think it is harmful. You have acted as though you are convinced it is, though.
Well, vaccines aren't poisonous and aren't being released into the air for others to breathe. There is a definite public heath benefit to vaccines (i.e. lots of people don't die). And all the dozens of studies done have shown no increased risk of autism due to vaccines. So it differs a hell of a lot.
None of which stops the anti vaxxers from spouting BS without sufficient data to back them up. They, too, have news articles that claim scientific studies to back them up.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by kjsimons, posted 03-27-2014 8:42 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 140 (723232)
03-27-2014 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by kjsimons
03-27-2014 7:58 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
The amount of nicotine in vegetables is miniscule compared to the amount in cigarettes.
For sure. I'm comparing it to the amount of nicotine in exhaled vapor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by kjsimons, posted 03-27-2014 7:58 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 80 of 140 (723233)
03-27-2014 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
03-27-2014 9:54 AM


What's wrong with smoking?
No it is not the same thing. People who care about you should not be trying to stop you from being gay,
If there were health hazards associated with being gay would we encourage people to not be gay? Or would we come up with a healthier way to be gay? If there are dangers associated with driving a car do we encourage people to not drive cars? Or do we come up with safer cars? Or be promiscuous or jump out of a plane? Why is smoking so different from any other behaviour be it chosen or inherent? (I would bet you a dollar that there is a genetic component to the reason that I smoke)
How is the way that our societies treat smokers not discrimination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 9:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2014 10:26 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 140 (723235)
03-27-2014 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by hooah212002
03-27-2014 8:25 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
Why wait for study results?
Exactly the point I was laughed at for making earlier.
Why wait for decades of studies on the long-term effects of second-hand 'vapors'? How many people died from exposure to traditional second hand smoke while folks sat around waiting for 'study results' before choosing to do anything?
How many people are still dying because various locales refuse to recognize the health hazard?
You are reacting as if e-cigs are actively killing you, yet no one has a clue as to what is actually in the vapor.
All the more reason to tell folk to blow their mystery vapor somewhere else.
Explain how your argument differs from that of the "vaccines cause autism" argument?
Or, instead, you could explain how it is any bit similar.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 03-27-2014 8:25 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by hooah212002, posted 03-28-2014 12:30 AM Jon has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 82 of 140 (723243)
03-28-2014 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Jon
03-27-2014 10:47 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
All the more reason to tell folk to blow their mystery vapor somewhere else.
Maybe I am a bit confused. Is your concern that people are blowing vapor in your face? Or that they are doing it indoors within your view? If the former, I can see a problem, but not with the vapor itself: that's fucking rude and you should take it up with that person, not as a crusade against their hobby. If the latter, then,....well....tough shit? I am pretty sure I have halitosis so my breath is probably more foul than the vapor exhaled by e-cigs and no one says shit to me (except for my wife when I gross her out by breathing in her face after a long night of whiskey, weed and garlic bread).
Secondly: have you any evidence that anything that is exhaled from e-cigs or vaporizors lingers for any amount of time? If it isn't blown in your face, what is the problem? Is there any science that indicates that water vapor lingers around, causing damage or being harmful well after it dissipates?
Look, I am disgusted by smokers more than is reasonable and I think people that smoke e-cigs and the like look silly and should stop advocating them as healthy alternatives (less dangerous alternatives would be better since we don't know if they are healthy or not), but to crusade against them and treat them the same as cigarettes is asinine. To claim them to be flat out dangerous to others is ridiculous.
"it's new and I am ignorant of it, so it must be dangerous"
How many people are still dying because various locales refuse to recognize the health hazard?
Still dying from what? Where? What do you mean with this?
Or, instead, you could explain how it is any bit similar.
"I have no data to back up my fear, but it persists nonetheless and I will advocate against it". The basic arguments are exactly the same for both topics. Granted, it's a pretty weak comparison and I won't bother making it anymore.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Jon, posted 03-27-2014 10:47 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Jon, posted 03-28-2014 11:20 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3040 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 83 of 140 (723247)
03-28-2014 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dogmafood
03-27-2014 9:01 AM


A cigar for your hole
Its like telling a gay person that they shouldn't be gay because its bad for their health.
But they did in the 80's inform gay people of the risks of having unprotected anal sex during the rise of AIDS. Not that they shouldn't be gay but that there are way safer ways to have sex.
My doctor told me that my smoking habit was going to kill me
He's right. Same as a doctor telling a gay person that having unprotected anal sex with multiple partners during the AIDS epidemic was likely to kill them.
I had to remind him that he was a consultant and not a director.
He did consult you on a way to reduce your risk of early death. Isn't that what you go to the doctor for?
the obese sick people in his waiting room were not smokers but instead were sedentary soda pop drinkers.
The most disgusting of all people, yes. Couldn't agree more.
A good cigar and a glass of whiskey or a joint and a beer are among the true pleasures in life.
And I'm sure to many people so is banging a dude right in his poop shoot. But there are safe ways to do it that reduce your risk of death.
As Rumpole of the Bailey said 'I would trade 5 yrs in the geriatric ward for a good cigar any day.'
But would he trade 30 years? My uncle died at 50 from smoking.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 03-27-2014 9:01 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 84 of 140 (723271)
03-28-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dogmafood
03-27-2014 9:01 AM


Re: Sounds like this book is a miracle method for quitting
ProtoTypical writes:
As Rumpole of the Bailey said 'I would trade 5 yrs in the geriatric ward for a good cigar any day.'
That's a cute sound bite. Did he mean 5 years for every cigar? That would make him dead sometime before birth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 03-27-2014 9:01 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 140 (723310)
03-28-2014 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Dogmafood
03-27-2014 10:05 PM


Re: What's wrong with smoking?
Why is smoking so different from any other behaviour be it chosen or inherent?
Because for now, we cannot fix the problem.
Because smoking is that it inherently requires an addictive substance that drags you early grave. You apparently aren't the least bit interested in e-cigs, so you've turned down the improvements. "Low tar" cigarettes just make you huff harder on them and then buy more.
Your doctor is not a magician. He can't fix cigarettes, so he's giving you the advice he can give you. His job is to worry about your health, and you insist on working against him and then bad mouthing him for trying to talk sense into you. Do you expect him to give your bronchioles some kind of anti-tar coating?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Dogmafood, posted 03-27-2014 10:05 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dogmafood, posted 03-29-2014 6:11 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 140 (723311)
03-28-2014 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dogmafood
03-27-2014 9:01 AM


Re: Sounds like this book is a miracle method for quitting
'I would trade 5 yrs in the geriatric ward for a good cigar any day.'
Here is an anecdotal data point for you. My mom has already outlived her used to be 20 cigs a day husband by 25 years.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dogmafood, posted 03-27-2014 9:01 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 140 (723313)
03-28-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by hooah212002
03-28-2014 12:30 AM


Re: Just don't exhale
There is no argument to make.
Show that it's safe.
Until then, keep it out of my air.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by hooah212002, posted 03-28-2014 12:30 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by hooah212002, posted 03-28-2014 11:25 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 890 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 88 of 140 (723314)
03-28-2014 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Jon
03-28-2014 11:20 PM


Re: Just don't exhale
It's not in your air.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Jon, posted 03-28-2014 11:20 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 89 of 140 (723319)
03-29-2014 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by hooah212002
03-27-2014 1:37 PM


Re: Sounds like this book is a miracle method for quitting
Again, I can't tell if your post is serious or not
No I was being serious. My points were that I actually do enjoy smoking and that smokers are excessively demonised.
I have no problem with being told that I can not smoke beside you while you are eating your salad but being told that I can not smoke in the park or on the patio or in my office has nothing to do with any danger to the health of others. The looming restrictions on vaping are a good sign that there is something else at play.
Imagine if we reacted the same way for all of the other hazards that result from our choices. Big signs that remind us how many people were killed by cars every time we go for a drive or pictures of clogged arteries on every bag of potato chips. We could have pictures of a cow being slaughtered on the menu beside the cheeseburgers and reminders of how intelligent a pig is beside the breakfast special. How about giant billboards of dead children in front of the munitions factory, oiled birds by every gas station and videos of working conditions in the garment factory when you go to buy your clothes.
I am aware that there is an element of cognitive dissonance and that I am bitching about having it continuously pointed out to me. I appreciate that I am on the wrong side of the argument and I certainly appreciate how difficult it is to stop. I applaud your decision and ability to quit and I empathize with subbie. I just think that the dissonance doesn't belong only to the smokers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by hooah212002, posted 03-27-2014 1:37 PM hooah212002 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Jon, posted 03-29-2014 1:35 PM Dogmafood has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 437 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 90 of 140 (723320)
03-29-2014 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by NoNukes
03-28-2014 10:26 PM


Re: What's wrong with smoking?
You apparently aren't the least bit interested in e-cigs, so you've turned down the improvements.
I think that vaping might be a good alternative. I went looking for some yesterday but couldn't find any that had nicotine. Apparently the good people of Ontario have decided to restrict them. I have to look some more.
His job is to worry about your health, and you insist on working against him and then bad mouthing him for trying to talk sense into you.
I didn't mean to bad mouth him here and he didn't take it that way at the time. He acknowledged my argument and then pointed out that it didn't make a damn bit of difference. He said something like ' Smoking as much as you do is stupid and no amount of philosophy is going to stop a heart attack.' I disagreed about that as well but left feeling thoroughly chastised. He did say that he wouldn't mind if I smoked 4 or 5 cigarettes a day which I thought was a much better approach than telling me that I was about to die a horrible death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2014 10:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by NoNukes, posted 03-29-2014 6:48 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
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