Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The boasts of atheists (Atheist self-deception)
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 61 of 304 (330311)
07-10-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by robinrohan
07-10-2006 10:17 AM


I'm aware of the definition of boasting. The point of this thread appears to be to say how other people compare unfavourably to yourself. They are "dishonest", not "honorable", they "deceive themselves" - all of which means no more than that they disagree with you. It is certainly not to argue that your ideas are right - if it were you would actually be presenting arguments instead of attacking peopel for disagreeing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 10:17 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 1:24 PM PaulK has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 304 (330319)
07-10-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by robinrohan
07-10-2006 12:02 AM


Re: another way of pondering the question
No. There is a difference between one's practical life and one's philosophical life. I would never speak of my nihilistic views to my peers. I could be fired for that. One must be very positive on one's job, of course.
But here I feel I can be honest.
Either you are saying that the others are not being honest or you are saying you find their simple statements to be so beyond what you consider possible for you to accomplish as to be unbelievable. Which is it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 12:02 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 1:33 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 304 (330321)
07-10-2006 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
07-10-2006 12:12 AM


Re: another way of pondering the question
1. Premise. If there is not a God the only kind of morality and happiness anyone can have is subjective, practical.
2. As stated, this doesn't not necessarily mean that things are any different if there IS a God.
3. The way an atheist "should never speak" is about happiness and morality in any terms OTHER than practical and subjective.
4. What this further means (I guess. Robin can correct me) is that honesty requires a more sober assessment of happiness and morality in the absence of a God /absence of absolute standards than Robin thinks is expressed in what he calls "boasting" tones.
Could well be but simply not included in the OP. But so far the examples he has given sound like pretty simple desciptions of what most folk would call very ordinary behavior. It is entirely possible that there are some people who are not capable of minimal standards of behavior, but none of Robins examples point to someone boasting of anything more than common traits.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:12 AM Faith has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 304 (330322)
07-10-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
07-09-2006 12:44 AM


Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Often, at EvC, we fire off potshots at one another based on a quote and on our emotional reactions to that quote.
Waking up early this morning, I browsed the threads with a sort of detached observer status while watching the news on the television....until I came to this thread. I read a few of the challenging attacks aimed at you, including my own, and then I decided to look up the author of your signiture quote. Is this the guy?
If so, he is anything but a nihilist, which is not what I expected. He seemed to be a man who questioned his beliefs and who ultimately influenced many Christians, as the Wesley brothers, among others, attest.
So....
Robin of Rohan writes:
These boasts--I have run across a lot of them and can provide quotes if you like--just will not do.
Phat writes:
In other words, it is not enough to convince you, right?
However, it is necessary that we make a distinction. The reason the atheists boast is to show that they can be happy and can be moral without God. Very understandable.
But we have to realize what is being said here. Yes, one can be happy and one can be moral, but one will also go to one's long home.
Phat writes:
In other words, we will spend a lot more time underground than we spend walking about on top of it, right?
It will be, in a hundred years, as if you never existed. You are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.
Phat writes:
seemingly, after taking your quotes in context, I believe that you, like Law, are not expressing your belief in Nihilism so much as questioning---challenging, even...whether any other beliefs make sense in light of the reality of our temporal lives.
So one must understand that fact thoroughly before one speaks of "happiness" and "exemplary moral character" and the "wonder of life."
Phat writes:
Yes...our lives are serious business, seeing especially how they are so brief in the larger scheme of things.
Except in a practical sense, it will not do to speak of such things as happiness and morality. If one is an atheist one should never speak this way. One should say, "We are products of a mindless universe, accidentally produced. We will live out our lives, and have some pleasures, and grow old, and die."
Phat writes:
Keyword: IF. Personally, I think that you are a passionate and emotional person who, though given to bouts of depression, are still alive enough to create posts such as this one to see if anyones candle is still lit and why our candles burn at all. You are searching for God, Robin. May you find Him or may He find you! I have new respect as to why you placed yourself on the Nihilists list. It is because you are honest and don't take beliefs lightly!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 07-09-2006 12:44 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 1:35 PM Phat has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 304 (330332)
07-10-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
07-10-2006 11:04 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Hooray, you're getting it, Phat.
I don't think Robin is a depressive at all however. He just thinks seriously about the meaning of life and it makes him sick when people talk about it lightly, make so much out of temporary subjective modes of happiness, as if death weren't the #1 enormous looming threat to us all that it is.
William Law is one of a few dozen greatest exhorters to the Christian life in my opinion. I've been very surprised at how Robin the atheist-nihilist seems to be drawn to Christian writers, even Jonathan Edwards who is hated by so many.
I still haven't figured out for sure if Robin's nausea is just about a distaste for boasting. I think it has to *really* be more about his sense that life is bigger than such pleasures and standards as people are boasting about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-10-2006 11:04 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by CK, posted 07-10-2006 11:28 AM Faith has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 66 of 304 (330335)
07-10-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
07-10-2006 11:25 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
quote:
I think it has to *really* be more about his sense that life is bigger than such pleasures and standards as people are boasting about.
Hum... this sounds awfully like
quote:
You atheists know deep down that god exists but you are just trying to rebel against him
Good to see whatever the topic that Christian mindreading is still working.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:32 AM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 304 (330337)
07-10-2006 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by CK
07-10-2006 11:28 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Well, if I'm mindreading I'm mindreading myself when I was an atheist too, because I had many of the same feelings Robin is expressing, primarily a disgust with the very common seeming denial and trivialization of the human predicament.
I can't say he'll end up a Christian although I did, but of course I hope he does since of course I believe it is what human life was made for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by CK, posted 07-10-2006 11:28 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by iano, posted 07-10-2006 11:42 AM Faith has replied
 Message 71 by Brian, posted 07-10-2006 11:59 AM Faith has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 68 of 304 (330341)
07-10-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
07-10-2006 11:32 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Much the same for me. Looking around and seeing pointlessness in what people so valued as being purposeful and realising that all my own purpose were illusionary too. There was the sense of making a big discovery in this - even if the realistion was depressing - failing a way out of it
The storm before the calm...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:48 AM iano has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 304 (330343)
07-10-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by iano
07-10-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
The storm before the calm...
Unless it is simply drowned out by the duties and demands -- and pleasures -- of life or drink or drugs or the like. Which apparently some can manage without ever turning to God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by iano, posted 07-10-2006 11:42 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by iano, posted 07-10-2006 12:42 PM Faith has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 70 of 304 (330347)
07-10-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by iano
07-10-2006 9:03 AM


Iano writes:
And she still sees it as a her being valued by people - rather than be valued by a well worked out cost-benefit HR system.
Its so sad
This is the Hawthorne Effect (my favourite effect).
The majority of human beings are affected by it. It is one of the ways in which we can learn and how we can have a co-operative society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by iano, posted 07-10-2006 9:03 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by iano, posted 07-10-2006 12:47 PM Larni has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 71 of 304 (330348)
07-10-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
07-10-2006 11:32 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
I can't say he'll end up a Christian
I sincerely think he already is a Christian who is playing a wee game.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:24 PM Brian has replied
 Message 80 by purpledawn, posted 07-10-2006 12:51 PM Brian has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 72 of 304 (330349)
07-10-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by robinrohan
07-10-2006 10:17 AM


Ribinrohan writes:
the way I am defining it.
Dude this type of comment sends shivers down my spine.
With it you could be meaning anything and none of us would be any the wiser.
I have always apprehended that boasting is to be a bragart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by robinrohan, posted 07-10-2006 10:17 AM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 304 (330357)
07-10-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Brian
07-10-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Believe me I've interrogated him via email and he's not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Brian, posted 07-10-2006 11:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Brian, posted 07-10-2006 12:35 PM Faith has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 74 of 304 (330361)
07-10-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
07-10-2006 12:24 PM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
He's hardly likely to tell you is he?
Who else would take a cheap shot at atheists by setting up false premises, inventing definitions for words as a backtrack, and claiming that all atheists believe a certain thing?
But Robin does have all the classic traits of a fundy Christian. Bouts of depression, the craving for a higher authority to take control, the "there must be more to life than this" mentality, misunderstanding other people's faiths, and claiming to know what someone believes better than they do.
He is certainly not a nihilist, that much is certain.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Wounded King, posted 07-10-2006 12:43 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:44 PM Brian has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 75 of 304 (330365)
07-10-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
07-10-2006 11:48 AM


Re: Another analysis of the mind of Robin
Of course. But a far less dangerous position to occupy that the self-satisfied-all-is-well-with-the-world stance
The thinner the camel the easier He can squeeze it through the eye of a needle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 11:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 07-10-2006 12:45 PM iano has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024