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Author
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Topic: Is anyone else fed up with Muslims complaining all the time?
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 21 of 152 (350230)
09-19-2006 9:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by nator
09-18-2006 8:25 PM
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Hi Schraf,
I wonder, though, if we can think of any reason that muslims, particularly in the middle east, might lately feel that their religion is under attack? Nope. Care to enlighten? Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by nator, posted 09-18-2006 8:25 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 24 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 9:53 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 34 of 152 (350306)
09-19-2006 12:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by nator
09-19-2006 9:53 AM
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Schrafinator,
Bush called the war in Iraq a "crusade". He didn't literally mean a crusade of christians vs. muslims, though, did he? As evidenced by the other conciliatory stuff he also said at the time. He meant "crusade" as a military effort, like "crusade against bolshevism". Extremely poor choice of words, I agree.
Israel's constant oppression of them, and the west's endorsement and military support of Israel. (Not that both sides aren't to blame here, to be sure) How is this an attack on religion? Palestinian atheists & other groups are just as oppressed, so it's not an attack on Islam, per se. As far as I'm aware mosques aren't attacked in Israel, either. Israels problems are of ethnicity as it pertains to the unequal distribution of power & civil rights. Israel wouldn't care if all palestinians were Hindu, the same problems would exist. Nor could their actions be construed as an attack on the Hindu faith, either, rather than the group of people "in their way" that happen to be primarily of one faith.
Bush's declaration that Iran was part of the "Axis of Evil", even though at the time there was a more moderate reformer leader there, who what quickly replace by a radical after they felt threatened. This isn't Islam under attack, it's Iran. I can't think of anywhere where Islam is being physically attacked purely because it is Islamic. Certainly, people are targeted & oppressed that happen to be muslim, but that's a different thing altogether to their religion being deliberately attacked just because it is that particular religion. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 9:53 AM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 9:35 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 42 of 152 (350334)
09-19-2006 2:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
09-19-2006 1:43 PM
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Re: interesting post
Brian,
There have been many Muslims arrested in the UK this year, most have been plotting terrorist attacks or know something about it. many of these people meet at Mosques up and down the country, and I refuse to believe that many muslims do not know who the extremeists are amongst them. Yet they say nothing to the authorities. Of the nine arrests in E17 in august, one was in my road. And the arrests took place on a morning that I flew. I went white when I realised on my return! I ask myself, how many more knew of this plot? If nine people in my immediate vicinity were actually planning an attack, how many more would at least be sympathetic to the action? Sadly, I think the answer is, "quite a few". This is probably why they say nothing to the authorities. I know someone in the newly set up anti-terrorist unit & asked them how much intelligence comes from the muslim community, & the answer was "none that I am aware of". Strange that the community best placed to provide intel actually provides very little. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Brian, posted 09-19-2006 1:43 PM | | Brian has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2006 6:45 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 55 of 152 (350588)
09-20-2006 7:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 51 by nator
09-19-2006 9:35 PM
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Schraf,
It doesn't have to be "purely" for there to be resentment. Let me rephrase, then. I can't think of anywhere where Islam is being physically attacked because it is Islam. You originally posted regarding muslims having their religion attacked. Islam is being attacked, or it isn't. Since all attacks on "arabs" (by nations) are for reasons other than religion, in no way can anyone claim that Islam is under attack. It's like pointing out that some arabs have big noses & therefore Israel is making an assault on big-nosed people. It's an inappropriate conflation combined with a fallacy of composition.
As much as I agree with you, and I do, that's not how some muslims view things. To some muslims, to attack a muslim government or muslim state is to attack the muslim religion. They are wrong, then, & that's their bad, no-one elses. Perhaps we need a PR job pointing this out. After all, I expect these very same muslims would deny that the 9/11 attacks were an attack on christianity rather than the west/USA. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by nator, posted 09-19-2006 9:35 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by nator, posted 09-20-2006 8:53 PM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 56 of 152 (350589)
09-20-2006 7:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 50 by Modulous
09-19-2006 6:45 PM
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Re: the band of brothers
Modulous, Good point, & I sincerely hope you are right. I'd much rather accept this than walk around my hometown thinking a significant minority of the population wanted me dead. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Modulous, posted 09-19-2006 6:45 PM | | Modulous has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 93 of 152 (350925)
09-21-2006 4:06 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by nator
09-20-2006 8:53 PM
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Schraf,
Some muslims feel that their religion is being attacked whether it is or isn't in my or your judgement. Of course it can be judged by us. Either they are right to say that their religion is under attack, or not. And they aren't.
We invaded Iraq, another largely Islamic country, and not a single one of the administration's stated pre-war reasons for going to war there have been supported by facts. Nevertheless, the reason for invasion/action was not to attack Islam, the same goes for all the other examples. Muslims have no business saying that the reasons for action were to attack Islam, it's a lie.
I'm not saying that their reasoning isn't flawed. Good, because the claim that Islam is under attack is simply false. I only care about what they can legitimately claim, everything else is in the bin. It's unsubstantiated propaganda. Mark Edited by mark24, : spelling
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by nator, posted 09-20-2006 8:53 PM | | nator has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by Silent H, posted 09-21-2006 5:26 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 99 of 152 (350948)
09-21-2006 8:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by Silent H
09-21-2006 5:26 AM
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Holmes,
On the one hand we have a small % of muslims getting riled up over something stupid, likely the result of a mistaken impression about their position in the world. I'm not sure it's necessarily that small a percentage, but you seem to agree with the gist of my point. The rest of your post wasn't relevent to the point I made in response to Schraf. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by Silent H, posted 09-21-2006 5:26 AM | | Silent H has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 100 by nator, posted 09-21-2006 8:59 AM | | mark24 has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 101 of 152 (350968)
09-21-2006 9:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 100 by nator
09-21-2006 8:59 AM
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Schraf,
If what you are saying is that there is no possible way, given the reasons I have stated, that some Moslems might come to the somewhat paranoid conclusion that Islam is under attack, then I guess we have nothing more to talk about. I'm not saying that, & can't see how you possibly came to that conclusion. I'm stating that they have erroneously come to that conclusion. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by nator, posted 09-21-2006 8:59 AM | | nator has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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hehe
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 102 by Chiroptera, posted 09-21-2006 9:51 AM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 106 of 152 (351013)
09-21-2006 12:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 104 by Silent H
09-21-2006 11:03 AM
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Holmes,
Again you seem to be talking past schraf on this. It appears that she agrees that it is erroneous, the point is that it may be reasonable (aka understandable) that they have drawn that erroneous conclusion. Sort of like understanding that scientists long ago may very well have come up with a terracentric model of the universe by misreading evidence they had. It was totally erroneous but given their position, reasonable. How can it be reasonable and erroneous when we all have the same information? Your analogy breaks down because scientists can make reasonable inferences at any given time that subsequently are shown to be wrong with data discovered later. We all have the same data in this case. Either this particular subset of muslims are unreasonable or they aren't based on the information we all have now. Just because they have a different point of view or come from a different ethnic background doesn't prevent them from, or make it reasonable/understandable to make inappropriate conflations combined with fallacies of composition. Either Islam is under attack, or it isn't. Given that Islam isn't under attack, then it is not understandable that they maintain the opposite position. Mark added by edit:
Again you seem to be talking past schraf on this. It appears that she agrees that it is erroneous Are you sure?
schraf writes: I'm not sure that they would be erronious in their assesment of Israel's motivations. Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by Silent H, posted 09-21-2006 11:03 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 107 of 152 (351018)
09-21-2006 12:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 103 by nator
09-21-2006 10:49 AM
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Schraf,
I'm not sure that they would be erronious in their assesment of Israel's motivations. I am, Israel attacked the Lebanon, not because it was Islamic, but because it was being attacked from Lebanon by terrorist groups. Israel did not attack the Lebanon because it contained muslims, or was an Islamic state. I assume you were talking about the recent fraca, but the same argument holds in any situation. Israel is motivated by national security (& please be clear, I'm not condoning the causes of why it has to act this way, or its actions), not a hatred of Islam. As I've stated before, Israel couldn't give a hoot what religious persuasion the people are that attack them.
But anyway, I should have said more clearly (and I now realize that I wasn't clear) that I think that Muslims are somewhat justified in thinking that their religion is under attack. It seems to me that you do not. They are not justified in their opinion that their religion is under attack in the middle-east, because it plainly isn't. In the same way that christianity wasn't under attack on 9/11. Mark Edited by mark24, : No reason given.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by nator, posted 09-21-2006 10:49 AM | | nator has not replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 113 of 152 (351113)
09-21-2006 3:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 111 by Silent H
09-21-2006 3:13 PM
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Holmes,
I guess I am assuming that those who are rioting do not have the same information. It is likely not complete, and perhaps biased.
You may have a point regarding the above with regard to leaders, but I'm not sure it is the same with the larger mass of upset people. Even if, for example, Johnny Syrian didn't realise that terrorists were attacking Israel from Lebanon, it still doesn't warrant a "therefore they are attacking Islam" conclusion. What information are they privy to that allows such a conclusion to be arrived at?
On a side note: I just received some rather upsetting news, and it has some profound effect on my future. Real life stuff. I may not be able to post responses for a while. I'll try but I can't promise anything. OK, no problem, I hope you get some sort of resolution, mate. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by Silent H, posted 09-21-2006 3:13 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: 12-01-2001
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Message 116 of 152 (351262)
09-22-2006 9:23 AM
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Reply to: Message 115 by Silent H
09-22-2006 7:19 AM
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Holmes,
I totally agree they are wrong. I think your point is well made that to suggest Islam is under attack is to miss everything actually in play. I just think that schraf has a point (if I am understanding it) that the average person in depressed mideast nations are unlikely to have access to proper information on, much less correct understandings of, the intricate geopolitical situation they are in and so get a "feeling" based on more superficial analysis of regional events. I guess I'd have to agree to this possibility, what is less understandable is similar opinions being expressed by muslims in the west. Mark
There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by Silent H, posted 09-22-2006 7:19 AM | | Silent H has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by Silent H, posted 09-22-2006 12:00 PM | | mark24 has not replied |
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