Amendment # 28 to ban Gay marriage!

It's good that you have the hard data on the divorce rates to refute my supposition. That is powerful information that the Gay community could use to validate Gay marriage since it's arrangement appears to be more stable and permantent than traditional or as you say "mixed sex" marriage.

According to berberry, the main thing the Gay community wants is to achieve parity in society. So marriage is a part of reaching parity and acceptance is also part of it. Sensitivity training towards Gays mentions acceptance so I believe they desire that in order to achieve real parity.I personally don't equate inter-racial marriage with the Gay marriage issue. I don't believe the skin tone tells anything about the make-up of a person. I place some concerns on people of different cultural backgrounds getting married because your cultural roots make up more of who a person is than the amount of melenin in your skin. So if you are going where I think you are - don't go there with me. I am not a racist and I don't have anything against people of different racial make-ups getting married.

Lizard Breath-Hey, I'm not trying to trap you, just trying to understand and express my own view. I personally cannot see any difference between anti-interracial marriage laws and anti-gay marriage laws. What I see in both instances is the government saying to two adults who want to be married "you cannot marry each other." Yet for if those same two people wanted to marry someone of their own race and of the opposite gender, the government says "knock yourself out".This is how I see it. You see it differently. I don't understand why you do not equate not allowing interracial marriages with not allowing homosexual marriages but I'd really like to know b/c I'm very curious. Exchange of ideas and all that.

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I place some concerns on people of different cultural backgrounds getting married because your cultural roots make up more of who a person is than the amount of melenin in your skin.

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You can have all the concerns you want about the marriage of two people from different cultural backgrounds. But does your concern mean that they shouldn't have the right to get married if they want to?If I ever want to get married, the idea that I would need the approval of anyone other than the girl I'd be marrying scares the Hell out of me.

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

Concerns about them getting married - yes. Absolutes concerning them not to marry because of cultural diversity - no. I think there's a popular sit com that addresses the issue from a humorous angle about a girl with hippie parents who marries a dude from the elite.As far as you being scared to death about winning someone else's approval to marry a girl, then you must have issues about yourself. I received the approval from my wife's family concerning dating her and then later on marrying her. If they had objected to either, she would have called it off with me. She wouldn't have liked it, but her character was developed by her parents to be both strong and independent while respecting the wisdom of them. Her parents are well respected by me and most definitly by her. Their ability to observe my character, mannerisms, guage my opinions and test my perspectives while remaining outside of the areana of love and not looking through rosy glasses gave her confidence that she had met a keeper and it gave me confidence that this family would be my allie and not my adversary in life.I have friends, close friends who did not win the approval of the girl's parents and it has put the wife in the middle of a family tug of war for the girl's loyalties.If you don't win the girl's parents approval doesn't mean it won't work but it does mean that while I start the race with 2 additional sets of tires that my pit crew can change when the car starts to get loose in the corners, you might have to run the whole race on the same set. If you've got a good set of tires, then you'll make it but if track conditions are harsher than expected, you'll want the option of a fresh set. Good inlaws can give you a fresh outlook when times get tough. I'm speaking allogorically concerning the race car example - in the spirit of the Daytona Week action, so be aware of that before someone starts putting my sentences in quotes and accusing me of thinking that women are worth no more than a fresh set of racing slicks.You might reconsider your position and say you hope you win the approval of your future wife's parents because it has value instead of being horrified of it, but it won't be the end of the world it you don't. Is it your disdain for parents and restrictions or do you have a history of not being accepted by the parents of the girls you date?

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As far as you being scared to death about winning someone else's approval to marry a girl, then you must have issues about yourself.

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No... you're missing the point. The idea that I would not have the right to marry her without the approval of others is what scares me.I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to have other peoples' approval. But ultimately the only two people who have to approve would be me and her. The idea that anyone else would have a say in it is a frightening one.

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

I think what he is say is like this.
What if you had the approval of your Girl but the Government wouldn't allow you to marry her? How would you feel? Would be Upset? Now I realise Alot of people aren't strong willed and will just give up but many won't.... why should they give up? why should a government tell to adults what they can do unless its harming others? ..... If people Just gave up where would this world be?[This message has been edited by DC85, 02-12-2004]

Dan Carroll:

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Whatever happened with that judge, anyway? Last I heard people were going to try and physically block anyone who tried to remove the ten commandments.

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The monument was removed and he was thrown off the bench in a unanimous decision by the Court of the Judiciary.He's now considering running for Governor, if I recall correctly.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Lizard Breath responds to me:

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I don't know what your problem is with me but you are sure digging around dissecting what as I say as if you are trying to hold a trial here.

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No, I am pointing out that you are expressing yourself in such a way that would lead one to conclude that you view the world in a specific way. You claim you are having a hard time understanding why gay people would want to get married.I am simply pointing out that perhaps the reason you are having trouble understanding is because you have an unusual vision of what gay people are like...and that such a vision is borne out through the way you express yourself.

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If you're going to comment on how many times I said "lifestyle", then why don't you comment on how many times I said the word "the"?

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Because "the" as a plain article doesn't carry the same amount of meaning as "lifestyle."You see, a "lifestyle" is something you can change. It is something you adopt. By referring to homosexuality as a "lifestyle," it conveys the idea that gay people could convert to straight people if they simply put their mind to it.

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Where did I ever say that I have the opinion that the Gays are all cut from the fab 5?

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What do you think the word "lifestyle" means? What the guys on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy do is provide a change of lifestyle: They redecorate, alter wardrobe and grooming, provide new culinary experience, and discuss culture (or whatever the hell it is that Jai actually does).And all the guys end up looking somewhat the same: Loose clothing, bed head, nouveau cuisine, pseudo-modern furnishings, and certain CDs in the player.That's a "lifestyle."Now here's the point you missed: I didn't bring up the Fab 5 because I seriously thought you attributed their lifestyle to all gay people. I brought them up because they epitomize a certain type of lifestyle...a lifestyle that the vast majority of gay people don't live out.So these guys are gay. They have a lifestyle. Does that mean it's the "gay lifestyle"?The point was to make you come out and specifically describe what this "lifestyle" is you keep talking about. If it isn't them, what is it?

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And don't tell me that it's not a lifestyle.

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Oh, but I did! It isn't.What is the "gay lifestyle"? How does it differ from the "straight lifestyle" and how are those different from the "bisexual" and "asexual" ones?Be specific.

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The homosexual community uses the term themselves so if you want to correct someone, go explain it to them.

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No, they don't. Not really.Do I need to point out that even mainstream advertisers have figured that out? Do you not remember the Johnny Walker ad which read, "For the last time. It's not a lifestyle, it's a life."That phrase is quite popular among gay rights groups.

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The other thing you comment on is that I am supposedly saying that marriage is such a horrible thing.

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Let's take a look at what you actually said, shall we? Now tell me: What is a "burden" if not a "horrible thing"? You seem to be saying that gay people shouldn't get married so that they don't have to go through the pain of divorce.I don't know about you, but that seems to indicate that you think there are some down sides to marriage. I hardly said nor implied that you think marriage is a ridiculous thing from start to finish.Instead, I pointed out that your harping upon the not-so-nice things about marriage is not a reason to convince gay people not to get married. Straight people know about the risks and still get married. Why on earth wouldn't gay people do the same thing? And with nothing prevent straight people from not getting married, wouldn't the same advice apply to them?

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Again you betray yourself that you've got some personal vendetta against me.

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How could it be personal? I don't even know you?

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So what's your problem dude?

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The problem is that I see a statement that claims to be wanting one thing while betraying that desire in the way it is expressed.This has nothing to do with you. It has to do with what you said. You are not the same thing as what you said.

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I didn't ask whether anyone wanted to be treated less of a human being by the government.

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But you did ask why gay people would want to get married. Wouldn't their reasons be the same as straight people's reasons?If equal rights under the law is a good thing, why wouldn't gay people fight for that, even if they wouldn't want to avail themselves of that right?Most people don't vote in this country. We had to amend the Constitution in order to guarantee the right to vote to women and people who aren't white and those who are 18. And yet, they mostly don't take advantage of it.Does that mean it was inappropriate to have worked to give them that right?

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You are making a big stretch by inferring that by my asking why Gay's want legal marriage that I'm questioning their right as human beings to be treated with dignity.

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You are questioning their motivation for fighting for equality. Why would gays want to get married?How is that not questioning their right to equality?Does it matter why someone is fighting for equality?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Lizard Breath writes:

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I personally don't equate inter-racial marriage with the Gay marriage issue.

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Why not? What is it about the sex of the spouse that makes it something to care about compared to the race of the spouse?

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I don't believe the skin tone tells anything about the make-up of a person.

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And sexual orientation does?What is this "gay lifestyle"? What does being bisexual tell you about the makeup of a person?

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I place some concerns on people of different cultural backgrounds getting married because your cultural roots make up more of who a person is than the amount of melenin in your skin.

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And how does sexual orientation tell you what a person's culture is?What is this "gay lifestyle"? What does being straight tell you about a person's culture?

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I am not a racist and I don't have anything against people of different racial make-ups getting married.

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But you do seem to have a hiccup regarding people of the same sex getting married.If the race of the participants is of no concern when it comes to marriage, how is the sex something to worry about?The arguments as to why marriage cannot be denied on account of race can be mapped perfectly to sex by mere substitution.Hint: Do be aware that the means to an end is just as important as the end, itself. The ends can never justify the means. Being in support of same-sex marriage because it is what the constitution demands is not the same thing as being in support of it because it is the right thing to do.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Oops!Sorry about that. I read right through what you were trying to say and after you pointed it out I can see you mean from an outside censorship. Yeah, that would really whip the llama's ass if you had to get the aproval of a town comisar to get married to a specific woman. I think we agree on what you originally posted.Thank God they don't have me in charge of pushing the Nuke buttons! It's a little hard to apolgise once they are launched.

Yeah, you are right about my own personal opinion about same sex marriages. I'll try to explain why I feel that skin tone has nothing to do with it but your gender does.I have a lot of friends who are men. I am a man. I have an inner circle of 8 men who are very good friends of mine and 3 who are close friends. I have women friends also but none are in my inner circle. The inner circle of friends that I have are very good and loyal brothers to me. I love these guys. I love being around them, spending time with them, watching and playing football, going camping and fixing cars with them. The 3 of them that I consider close friends know most everything there is to know about me. I can share most anything with them and I would give my life to protect any of them. I have a bond with the 8 and also with the many other men friends that I cherish and find healthy.Now with the women friends. Some are good friends of mine but I keep an invisible emotional distance from them. Why? Because they are women and I am oriented to be attracted to women. Evey woman who works in our squadron is subliminally evaluated by every man as to wheather or not you would sleep with her, and every woman can spend 3 minutes in a conversation with any man and know whether he would sleep with her. That's the dynamics of sex and being human. So I don't allow myself to have close friends who are women because of the obvious danger of being unfaithful to my wife. My wife started out as an aquaintaince, then a friend, then a good friend and then quickly the love of my life. There's only room for one and no competition is allowed in my life now that we are married.Now lets say that all of a sudden I decided that I wanted to sleep with a man and handle dude parts instead of wanting to be with a woman. It sounds graphic but that's what homosexuality is. Men who want to handle dude parts instead of women's parts, but the sex drive is still there.So now I have these 8 friends in my inner circle and 3 close friends and we are now all gay. I can no longer have the healthy man to man type relationship with them that I had before because now sex is involved. We're all still men so we have strong sex drives but now it's for each other. So when we all go out camping, we can't sit around the fire anymore and just shoot the bull because we're all in a situation similiar to if I was camping with 7 women. I'd be eyeing them up for more than just conversation, and now the relationships and competition becomes very complex. So much for a relaxing men's get-away camping trip.So what I see the gay's loose is that really cool man to man bonding and exchange it for a man to man sex/bonding with the sex always in the areana. So who then does the Gay man go to just bond with? Women? Again, even though they are attracted to other men, they are still different from women so whatever bonding occurs will not replace the man to man non-sexual bonding. And in the military, open Gay service will be a disaster because even though I will serve with them and do my job with them, there will be no male to male bonding because of the sex issue, similiar to how we as men are taught concerning how to respect the women servicemen differently. There are clear rules and it is suicide for a man to have a woman bring up sexual harrasment charges against him. Can you imagine the complex dynamics now if the sex thing is permeated within the male ranks with each other?So my confusion comes in when I wonder why any man would want to throw away the really valuable man to man friendships and bonding and exchange it for a sexual relationship with each other. I'm not knocking them although I don't know why a man would ever want to handle other mens dude parts. But I believe they give up way more then what they get back when they exchange the natural male to male bonds for the right to have sex with each other.

Well spoken about the marriage conditions.So if race is not an issue then gender should not be an issue.If gender is not an issue, then gender combinations is not an issue.If gender combinations is not an issue, then quantity is not an issue.If quantity is not an issue then age is not an issue.If age is not an issue then -------------I wonder at what point the whole concept of marriage becomes unrecoverably distorted to where the definition of a family is as nebulous as the definition of heaven. If the concept of a family unit becomes trashed by the time everyone is done redefining it to suit their own specific bend, I wonder if our social structure will handle it.What did you mean by saying "Being in support of same-sex marriage because it is what the constitution demands is not the same thing as being in support of it because it is the right thing to do"?Do you mean that anyone who does not believe in his heart that Gay marriage is just as right as straight marriage has the real troubles. If so, what would you do with those straight disidents and how far would you go to identify them?

BZZT! Slippery slope fallacy. Sorry. Try again.

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Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

Okay, I must be a complete mess then. I am a bisexual woman, I am capable of falling in love with (and having sex with) either a man or a woman. I must not be able to have any friendships that are close and without "sex" intereferring, right? I must be lusting after every single person I meet/come in contact with. My very best and closest friend is a man. We have known each other for about 15 years now. We have never been sexually attracted to each other, even though we met by being set up on a blind date with each other. Sorry, those assumptions are plain wrong. I don't need to "remove competition" to remain faithful to someone, I am not that weak. I can have very close, non-sexual relationships with either sex. And if marriage is so awful, ban marriage altogether. Another point I'd like to make that hasn't been made yet is on the issue of "why would gays want to face the risk of divorce?" Even if their marriage is not legally recognized they're "divorce" or break-up would still be as emotionally devastating as anyone elses. Besides, at least if you are legally married you can get lawyers involved and have at least a chance of things coming out more fairly. I've never been married, but I lived with a boyfriend once, and that break-up was harsh. He made life hell for me until I finally left, and gave up fighting him to get my stuff (furniture, books, movies, etc.) back. I walked out of that break-up with nothing gained, and my cat, he got the rest, including all the money I had paid on his debts!As for the healthcare situation in America, we can only hope that socialized medicine will happen here. It is definitely needed, but Bush (like most republicans who work for big business) is against Americans having socialized healthcare. However, he's fine with the idea of the American taxpayer footing the bill for Universal Healthcare for Iraqi citizens!
Melisa