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Author Topic:   Using your common sense to solve a physics problem.
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 151 of 188 (145573)
09-29-2004 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Lammy
09-28-2004 7:20 PM


Re: Nonresponse
Proven? I think not.

Rhain felt the need to explain to me that rock is not a sponge.
Well he is wrong about that.

I suppose he thinks a loose pile of bricks isn't soft either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Lammy, posted 09-28-2004 7:20 PM Lammy has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 152 of 188 (145577)
09-29-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Rei
09-28-2004 8:10 PM


Re: Nonresponse

That's irrelevant to the problem here. We're talking about how quickly water drains away.

No we are not, we are talking about a world wide flood, stay on topic then.


Not possible, unless the earth is incredibly flat. In which case, you have a lot of explaining to do on why it's not today.

Yes it is possible, this is my first hand observation. I believe I explained it several times already.


And yet, you refuse to give a number. Gee, I wonder why....

Bcause it is an isolated event, and has nothing to do with how fast it would drain out in a world wide flood, so it proves nothing.


Tell me, how deep does the water stand on your 30 degree slope

The top of the mountain I am not really sure, I wouldn't expect much.
But here near the bottom, the water literaly sparys out of the cracks in the rocks. Everywhere, and the whole thing turns into a waterfall. So it may not be deep, but it is covered in water.
What I think is happening is, once the mountain can no longer retain water, the water has no-where to go. The hydro-static pressure builds up in the ground water, and then forces it back out the mouintain, where it would collect with the rain water and have a doubling effect.
This whole prcess gets less, and less the closer you get to the top.

But it was this process that made me think to myself, just how bad would this get if it rained extremely hard for 40 days. Just how much would it back up, from the oceans to here. this is where my hypothesis ends, and real science has to take over. I would guess, but at that level, it wouldn't be a guess that I would bet on. But I am curious to find out what the actual numbers would be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Rei, posted 09-28-2004 8:10 PM Rei has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 1:38 PM riVeRraT has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 153 of 188 (145578)
09-29-2004 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Rrhain
09-29-2004 4:02 AM


Re: Nonresponse

So why is it you won't listen to them when they tell you it is nonsense?

Because they are just telling me, not proving it.
Common sense can prevail in a lot of situations vs. education. But I this happen mostly in the medical field. I guess thats where my real fustrations lie, not so much against scientists or physics. I was wrong for singling them out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Rrhain, posted 09-29-2004 4:02 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Mammuthus, posted 09-29-2004 11:27 AM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 169 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2004 7:45 AM riVeRraT has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 154 of 188 (145579)
09-29-2004 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Rrhain
09-29-2004 4:09 AM


Re: Nonresponse
IT stop rhaining.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Rrhain, posted 09-29-2004 4:09 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Rrhain, posted 09-30-2004 7:49 AM riVeRraT has responded

PaulK
Member
Posts: 15031
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 155 of 188 (145583)
09-29-2004 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by riVeRraT
09-28-2004 6:25 PM


Re: Nonresponse
Well if you brag that you know so much better than anyone else here, yet you have problems even EXPLAINING your ideas than I'd say that your attitude is at fault. And that's the situation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 09-28-2004 6:25 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 8:20 AM PaulK has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 156 of 188 (145587)
09-29-2004 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by PaulK
09-29-2004 7:42 AM


Re: Nonresponse
Please point me to the thread where I say I am smarter than anyone in here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2004 7:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2004 9:27 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 157 of 188 (145588)
09-29-2004 8:21 AM


IQ results in
Congratulations, Rhain!
Your IQ score is 129

This number is based on a scientific formula that compares how many questions you answered correctly on the Classic IQ Test relative to others.

Your Intellectual Type is Word Warrior. This means you have exceptional verbal skills. You can easily make sense of complex issues and take an unusually creative approach to solving problems. Your strengths also make you a visionary. Even without trying you're able to come up with lots of new and creative ideas. And that's just a small part of what we know about you from your test results.

WEll, I am definatly not a word warrior, so much for IQ tests.


PaulK
Member
Posts: 15031
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 158 of 188 (145601)
09-29-2004 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by riVeRraT
09-29-2004 8:20 AM


Re: Nonresponse
I said that you claimed to KNOW better. And the link has already been posted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 8:20 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 333 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 159 of 188 (145605)
09-29-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by riVeRraT
09-28-2004 10:13 AM


Re: Nonresponse
quote:
The reason why you guys are getting confused with what I said is that you think common sense and education are the same, its not.

What you claimed was that you were unfetterd by education so you could, unlike those with education, "think outside of the box".

I explained to you that you cannot "think outside of the box" if you are unaware or ignorant of what is inside the box in the first place.

It just means that you don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by riVeRraT, posted 09-28-2004 10:13 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 10:35 PM nator has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 160 of 188 (145624)
09-29-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by riVeRraT
09-29-2004 7:08 AM


Re: Nonresponse
quote:
Common sense can prevail in a lot of situations vs. education. But I this happen mostly in the medical field.

Can you cite a study, statistical analysis, independent source to back up that common sense prevails vs. education particularly in the medical sciences? I am curious, if you need surgery are you going to go to a trained doctor with an "education" or are you going to go to someone with "common sense" trusting that they know where to make the proper incision and hope you survive? Similarly, can you show an example of an uneducated person who has developed drugs using common sense approaches prevailing over the years of study most biologists and chemists have to go through in order to learn how to develope medicines? It appears your thesis is that the route to wisdom is to be as uninformed as possible. The history of discovery (including medical science) stands against this assertion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 7:08 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 10:59 PM Mammuthus has responded

Rei
Member (Idle past 5176 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 161 of 188 (145665)
09-29-2004 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by riVeRraT
09-29-2004 7:00 AM


Re: Nonresponse
quote:
quote:
That's irrelevant to the problem here. We're talking about how quickly water drains away.

No we are not, we are talking about a world wide flood, stay on topic then.


Wrong. Your proposed hypothesis was that areas get flooded faster than the water can drain away. So, we're discussing the ability for water to drain away. Unless you're changing your hypothesis, that is.

quote:
quote:
And yet, you refuse to give a number. Gee, I wonder why....

Bcause it is an isolated event, and has nothing to do with how fast it would drain out in a world wide flood, so it proves nothing.


Actually, it *does* - it shows how quickly large amounts of water drain away, so long as there is a path. Do you know *why* they drain away so fast? Because the velocity of the water is proportional to the square root of its depth - look up Bernoulli's law sometime.

[quote]

quote:
Tell me, how deep does the water stand on your 30 degree slope

The top of the mountain I am not really sure, I wouldn't expect much.


Biiiingo!

quote:
But here near the bottom, the water literaly sparys out of the cracks in the rocks.

Let me raise a couple of words of yours to stare at for a minute:

...here near the bottom...

Stare at them for a minute, will you?

quote:
What I think is happening is, once the mountain can no longer retain water, the water has no-where to go. The hydro-static pressure builds up in the ground water, and then forces it back out the mouintain, where it would collect with the rain water and have a doubling effect.

Instead of postulating with no knowlege on the subject, how about you *gasp* look it up? What is the geological makeup of your mountain? What minerals are in abundance? How much fracturing is there?

quote:
This whole prcess gets less, and less the closer you get to the top.

Biiiingo...

quote:
But it was this process that made me think to myself, just how bad would this get if it rained extremely hard for 40 days.

At the top? None. It comes out of the bottom not due to some mystery pressure, but due to gravity. The water needs to go somewhere, and it wants to go down. So, it goes down. Often fractures are the easiest path. It is irrelevant whether it goes down in fractures or down on the surface of the mountain; it still goes down. The deeper the water, the greater the pressure, and the faster it moves.

If the fractures fill up faster than they can discharge? It'll go over the surface.

quote:
Just how much would it back up, from the oceans to here. this is where my hypothesis ends, and real science has to take over.

It doesn't. Not a bit. The deeper water gets on a slope, the faster it moves. As I mentioned, water at the base of a 170 meter wall of water will move at around 57 meters per second (ignoring drag; however, a layer of drag will only exist right near the bottom and sides). Do the math: sqrt(2*9.8*depth). Deep walls of water get downstream *fast*. End of story.

Lets clear up some details about your proposed system here.

You have fractures in rock that allow water to penetrate. The main determination on how much water enters the fracture vs. flows over the surface is drag; since fractures are narrow, there is a lot of drag. The drag will be proportional to the square of the velocity, and the velocity will be linearly proportional to the amount of water flowing through. So, as the fractures near capacity, less water flows through them, and the more flows over them. In your intense-rain model, almost all of the water, consequently, will go on the surface, unless God magically changes drag.


"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 7:00 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 11:27 PM Rei has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 162 of 188 (145838)
09-29-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by nator
09-29-2004 10:05 AM


Re: Nonresponse

I explained to you that you cannot "think outside of the box" if you are unaware or ignorant of what is inside the box in the first place.

I fully agree with this, but that does not stop me from thinking outside the box. Through my mistakes, I might come up with something, because I am not hindered by a certain knowledge. I would however make more mistakes due to lack of knowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by nator, posted 09-29-2004 10:05 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by nator, posted 09-30-2004 9:18 AM riVeRraT has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 163 of 188 (145846)
09-29-2004 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Mammuthus
09-29-2004 11:27 AM


Re: Nonresponse
Listen, you need to go no further than your own family and experiences with the "doctors"
I'm sure you have a story.

Mine is that I had a lump in my throat, and although I kept telling the doctor that it wasn't a swollen lymph node like he was saying, and pumping me full of antibiodics, he would not listen. After the 4th visit to him, in 1.5 months, his words to me, after I suggest he send me to a specialist was " I am never wrong".
So I went to a specialist on my own (common sense) After delayed testing and speculation about what I was claiming to be something very abnormal in my throat, they finally found out it was a tumor.
So 7 months after I first felt it, it was finally removed with half my paradid gland. It was the size of a walnut.

I don't need any stupid surveys, anyway surveys can lie, you didn't know that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Mammuthus, posted 09-29-2004 11:27 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Mammuthus, posted 09-30-2004 4:16 AM riVeRraT has responded

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 164 of 188 (145862)
09-29-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rei
09-29-2004 1:38 PM


Re: Nonresponse

Wrong. Your proposed hypothesis was that areas get flooded faster than the water can drain away. So, we're discussing the ability for water to drain away. Unless you're changing your hypothesis, that is.

Yes, at least you get it.


Actually, it *does* - it shows how quickly large amounts of water drain away, so long as there is a path. Do you know *why* they drain away so fast? Because the velocity of the water is proportional to the square root of its depth - look up Bernoulli's law sometime.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You said, as long as there is a path right?
What if the path was filled with more water?
We can't just look at one lake, and one path. We need to see how all of it would react together.
Lake mean would have 4" of rain per hour behind it, and in front of it.


quote:Tell me, how deep does the water stand on your 30 degree slope

The top of the mountain I am not really sure, I wouldn't expect much.

Biiiingo!

But that is one mountain, in an insignificant rainfall even.
I said this from the begining, that the tops of the mountains being covered with 20 feet of water is not part of my hypothesis.

But if the water was rushing in this fashion, Noah would have never seen the top of any mountain, he would have been washed out to sea.
The mountain would have gotten smaller and smaller as he got washed further and further away. So it would appear to be covered up with water.
Understand?
I mean just the fact that the bible says the tops of the mountains were covered with 20 feet of water is ridiculus, and just an exageration of what happened, or a mis-interpretation. Noah never went out with a ruler and measure to the top of any mountain. How would he even know he was over one?

This does not mean that a flood did not occur.


Let me raise a couple of words of yours to stare at for a minute:

...here near the bottom...

Stare at them for a minute, will you?

Ok near the bottom means 50 ft above the lake that I am next to. The lake is 700 ft above sea level, and the top of the mountain is about 1200 ft. I also see it pouring out of the rocks 150 ft up from the lake as well. Simply an amazing site. The name of the road is waterstone rd. This is why.


Instead of postulating with no knowlege on the subject, how about you *gasp* look it up? What is the geological makeup of your mountain? What minerals are in abundance? How much fracturing is there?

Ok. sure.


At the top? None.

Well I wouldn't say none. Like I said from the begining, if it is covered in 1/4" of water, it is covered.


In your intense-rain model, almost all of the water, consequently, will go on the surface, unless God magically changes drag.

Yes, I stated that already. I also stated that because of that, in a computer run-off model, you would have to calculate the ground as being concrete. With no-drag.
My common sense figured that one out Its in a previous post.

I also understand what you are saying about water falling faster the bigger the wall. But what I'm thinking is that the water on the plains would back up, because it doesn't have the slope to run-off so fast. I wonder just how far it would back-up.

Remeber also the topgraphy of a mountain range. The are many slopes, up and down, and it need to be looked at as an average slope. The peaks would be "dryer" but most of the mountain range could be submerged. Then where the mountains meet the plains, the plains could be backed up so far that it affects the water runnig off the mountain to a degree.

I think everone here seems to think that once the water reaches the ocean WHAM! all the water in the ocean will be at the same level. But if you look at a bay, or the ocean around here in NYC, the oceans rise with heavy rainfall. Why is that, because it takes a period of time for the oceans to level out.

So even though the oceans would have to drop an average depth of 7 feet, the middle of the oceans could be further down than the edges near the shore. Add some polar ice cap melting, and the whole thing comes up to cover even more land.

I'm sure that whatever would cause the oceans to evaporate at that rate and then condense over land, it would melt the polar caps as well.

Hey can you tell I am a refrigeration mechanic yet? All this condesing and evaporating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rei, posted 09-29-2004 1:38 PM Rei has not yet responded

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 165 of 188 (145901)
09-30-2004 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by riVeRraT
09-29-2004 10:59 PM


Re: Nonresponse
Hi riVerRrat,
I am sorry that you went through that. However, you are conflating an idiot of a doctor with the science of medicine. I of course can give you plenty of anecdotes about incompetent doctors (especially in Germany). But anecdotes don't amount to much. The foundations of medical science are based on methodological naturalism and NOT common sense. The methods of diagnosis and the treatments were not developed by people with no education but common sense. Note, you turned to a specialist to identify the tumor...you did not rely on common sense for a diagnosis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by riVeRraT, posted 09-29-2004 10:59 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by riVeRraT, posted 09-30-2004 6:42 AM Mammuthus has responded

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