looking for good books

Hi all,I'm looking for a good list of books and/or authors that explore science (in particular homo evolution) with more of the layman's understanding in mind.Firstly, I think I have a pretty good non-scientist's grasp on science and can understand most arguments and theories (if not ALL the technical jargon ). I am currently reading Dawkins, Climbing Mount Improbable and Walker and Shipman's, The Wisdom of Bones. I have read some Sagan and Hawkings among others. What I'm looking for I guess are just some good reads with some cutting edge info.Secondly, I have a fundamentalist friend who seems to seriously want to discuss some of this with me. I am not experienced enough to get my point across the way I want to and she isn't educated enough to understand some of what I say anyway. She is the type to read Hovind's simplistic babble and think it's the truth because it is explained so much easier than real scientific works. Don't get me wrong, she is a good person and not stupid. She is just uneducated and has never had the rabid curiousity that I think must drive many of us on this forum.She has heard of a creationist book on evolution that she wants me to read, but she can't remember the name (she hasn't read it herself ). I have agreed to read anything she wants me to, if in turn she will read a book that I recommend. Now my dilemma. What book to recommend? I fear that even Dawkins might be over her head. What I need is a book that starts at the basics, and explains the REAL theories and evidence in an elementary way, yet at the same time makes it interesting to someone with no background in the subject. Hopefully, it won't be written with a real athiestic bent or I fear she won't finish it. Am I asking too much? ------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

To help counter the creationist literature, a good place to start is Douglas Futuyma's "Science on Trial" or Niles Eldredge's "The Triumph of Evolution". For some very readable, non-dogmatic evolution books I can't recommend E.O. Wilson's "The Diversity of Life" more highly. For a slightly more technical read - but still written for the layperson - try Ernst Mayr's "What Evolution Is". For cultural evolution of the last 10,000 years or so - try Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel". Finally, for the biological evolution of humans and the coevolution of culture, you might like Paul Ehrlich's "Human Natures : Genes Cultures and the Human Prospect". I'll leave the bonesy bits out - someone else can recommend a good paleontology book.If you're feeling ambitious, and would like a somewhat more technical treatment of evolution that doesn't quite reach the "textbook" stage, try Ernst Mayr's "Evolution and the Diversity of Life".Happy reading!BTW: If you want, ask your friend to come to evcforum (but warn us so she doesn't get eaten alive on the first post ). There are people here who can probably answer any question she'd care to pose...

Actually, the questions have probably already been answered. There hasn't been a really new one for awhile.You might also warn her not to jump in with assertions from her creationist sources until she's read what has already been posted.

I love Stephen Jay Gould. I find his essays very approachable for the intelligent layperson. I'm reading "The Mismeasure of Man" about the improper use of IQ studies to "prove" inferior intelligence in various human races. Very good, very engaging. I gave "The Rock of Ages" to my dad for his birthday a while ago; I have not read it but my dad liked it.Michael Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things" may give you insight as to why people hold irrational beliefs. He writes a column in Scientific American about skepticism that's generally very good, if I recall correctly. His book covers a spectrum of beliefs (not just creationism) so it's kind of a handy handbook when presented with anti-science arguments.The Rock of Ages might be the book you want your friend to read. Maybe. My dad is pretty faithful (in terms of religion) and he wasn't turned off by the book at all. But I haven't read it so I don't really know.

Asgara,I just realized I hadn't answered your question. I have a better idea. If your friend is interested, and really has no background as you suggest, then I would bag the books at first. My recommendation would be to rent and view together the marvelous PBS series "Evolution" on video. It's visually spectacular, well presented, non-dogmatic, and quite understandable. I bought it last year for my 11-yr old, who totally devoured the series (several times!). THEN, if she's still interested, get the companion book, Carl Zimmer's "Evolution: The Triumph of an Idea" for her to read. I'll admit my daughter has had a significant exposure to science and nature, having accompanied me on dozens of field trips, but even so the series shouldn't be beyond the capability of any reasonably intelligent person. Plus it's verrry compelling.

Sticking with popular books I have been impresssed with Carl Zimmer's Evolution and The Science of Discworld written by Terry Pratchett, Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen (the science by Steward and Cohen is interspersed with a Discworld story by Pratchett, so I suppose it might not work on all fundamentalists - some just think it's wrong to read books with "witches" or "wizards" as sympathetic characters !).The Science of Discworld II : The Globe deals more with humans but it is more about psychology then the physical evolution of humans It is still worth reading but it is perhaps on less certain ground and more dependant on the authors opinions.John L Casti's [b]Paradigms Lost[\b] and [b]Paradigms Regained[\b] might also be worth considering. They examine a number of scientific and philosophical issues, including abiogenesis, genetic determinism and human language capacity as well as extra-terrestrial life and AI. The second book is a companion which reexamines the issues in the light of more recent evidence.I would suggest starting with Zimmer, unless you feel that the approach taken by Casti or Pratchett, Stewart and Cohen is likely to be better received.For your own reading, Mayr's What Evolution Is is indeed good, but you might find Mark Ridley's Evolution easier going - both are itnended as undergraduate level texts.

Thanks all,You've given me some great ideas for summer reads for me. Undergrad level is probably about right for me. As for my friend I like the idea of the PBS series (thanks Q). I forgot all about that, I've seen some of them and really enjoyed them. Crash, I will also look into Rock of Ages, though Gould might be over her head /sigh. Paul, while I enjoy Pratchett, I agree that the witches and wizards thing would be too much for her. She had a minor heart attack when her 12 year old was first reading Harry Potter, took me a week to talk her down.As for inviting her to join the forum... I don't know LOL. She isn't really computer literate and only has ideas that she picks up from church readings. I think you guys would eat her up from the first "Hi". But maybe I can get her to look at some of the posts and maybe ask some questions of you when she is over here so I can referee. Any way I can keep some of the more...um...vocal...opposition out of the discussion? LOL I don't know if she could keep an open mind with some of them posting. (and I know how frustrated everyone gets when they start up )
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On a side note, what do you all think of Dawkins? I really like his writing style but he does seem to have a penchant for setting up some interesting hypotheses only to turn around and refute himself.------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

On the positive side I found Dawkins The Blind Watchmaker very helpful in understanding evolution. Dawkins is probably more representative of mainstream evolutionary theory than Gould who had an unfortunate tendancy to overhype his own ideas, presenting them as more revolutionary than they really were.On the negative side we have Dawkins public persona - his strident atheism is only going to encourage creationists to ignore what he says, and maintain their mistaken belief that evolution is anti-God.
The spat between the Dawkins and Gould camps (which has reached a level which has marred some otherwise worthwhile books like Dennet's Darwin's Dangerous Idea) is also something of a problem. (It was less so when The Blind Watchmaker was written and the section on punctuated evolution is certainly worth reading).Creationists often take very poorly to criticisms of creationist claims and so I could not reccomend the rather strident Dawkins over other writers. Indeed I have seen a creationist have severe problems with the milder Historical Note in Steve Jones' Almost Like a Whale (aka Darwin's Ghost).If your friend is open to considering a more liberal Christian theology (and is not a rabid anti-Catholic) then Miller's Finding Darwin's God might be worth a look.Part of the final chapter is online at http://www.brown.edu/...gazine/00/11-99/features/darwin.html

Asgara,Quetzal mentions Futuymas "Science on Trial". I can't recommend this more, it took me abut a year to get a hold of a copy since it went out of print. Happily this is no longer the case & you should be able to obtain a copy through Amazon (granted, I live in the UK).If you think you're at the undersgrad level, then look no further than Futuyma, once again; "Evolutionary Biology" 3rd Ed. By Douglas J Futuyma.Another excellent creation refuting whopper is "Science & Earth History", by Arthur N Strahler. This is a large format hardback, 500 pages, & sets out to refute all creationist arguments. It is readable by the layman, & introduces the science before making it's arguments. Perhaps this would be a good buy for your friend? I still refer to it now.Regarding your friend, as long as she came here to genuinely find things out, & used an "I'm ignorant of science, but I have some questions regarding evolution, the flood etc", she'd be fine. It's only creationists who come here spouting their misinformed nonsense that get slammed, & even then only after refusing to address the relevant raised issues.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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I think you guys would eat her up from the first "Hi".

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I think Mark24 got it right. If she comes here looking to understand the science-- not believe, just understand-- then she'll be fine. It is the clueless and arrogant Evo-Slayers that draw fire.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Well, , mostly. Many of us have seen quite a bit of this. We are always in danger of seeing the same stuff appear and make a lot of assumptions about the person posting. It is naughty but hard to resist.Even the "I just want to understand" approach has been used a number of times. They are almost always disingenuous and it quickly gets into "evo-slaying". So we might all be a little gun shy and make wrong assumptions.All of that's one reason why I suggested she be very careful in using AiG or ICR material. It has already been beat on and seeing it again just tends to get the clubs out almost instantly.

Ahhh if only more of us would turn off the boobtube and read a good book. I think part of the unreachableness of science for many poeple is that they refuse to sit down and read a good book about it. Of course separating the good science from the just plain bad could be problematic for the uneducated, but I think that the more you read the more likely you are to see the wheat for the chaff. As far as good reads go I enjoy many of Carl Sagan's writings especially "A Candle in the Dark", "Broca's Brain", "Pale Blue Dot", well just about all of them are inspiring for me. Stephen J. Gould is a very lucid writer and has a range of subjects hit upon, from baseball to evolution. Rick Potts "Humanities Descent: The Consequences of Ecological Instability" was well written. I just wish more poeple would take the time to read and educate themselves and discuss ideas rather than commit to ideologies and dogmatic assertations. Having a questioning mind and a sceptical attitude with a dash of amazement can go a long way

I liked Futuyma's "Science on Trial," and another excellent entry-level (enough for my entry, let it be said) book is Philip Kitcher's "Abusing Science." It's allegedly out of print, but I had no trouble finding it at the library. That's where we used to get books before there was Amazon, you young 'uns.The Strahler book is a mind-bogglingly comprehensive reference work containing all the down-and-dirty science details, and works well as a doorstop too.My personal favorite book that deals directly with the Creationist debate is Robert Pennock's amazing "Tower of Babel." Pennock is a philosopher of science at the U. of Michigan who concentrates on the philosophical issues concerning methodological naturalism and what can and can't be considered science. He shines a mercilessly harsh light on Intelligent Design, and anyone who's read Pennock's anti-ID articles online understands what quick work his philosophical scalpel can make of the already wormy corpse of the Argument from Design.Pennock takes his time, and "Tower" might be rough going for anyone just interested in a quickie fundie-refutation manual. If you're past that stage, it's an astounding mental workout.

Hi all,I want to thank you all again for your responses to my query.I still have not found a book "right" for explaining things at my friend's level. I had some exerpts of Miller's "Finding Darwin's God" and all she could see from them was "He's trying to set himself up as Godlike..." and didn't read any further. I did go to the trouble of writing a simple 11 page explanation of heritability, mutations, and diversity. I brought in simple definitions of evolution, scientific method, scientific theory, TOE, gene pool, etc. I am much better at explaining my points in writing than in speech. She took this as solely microevolution and refused to extend it to macroevolution. I haven't been able to obtain copies of the PBS Evolution series yet, but am working on it.I think that the main problem I am having, (and this extends, I believe, to any attempts at E vs C with the general populace) is that creationist literature, to a great extent, is written with lay ppl in mind; easy to read, catchy phrasiology, no real pesky science to get in the way of the affirmation of believe. Conversely, most literature on the evolution side contains a much more indepth discussion of science that presupposes a general working knowledge of the basics. Attempts to start out with the basics and build on them to explain TOE start reading like textbooks and some ppl loose interest fast, or become so juvenile as to be almost insulting.Oh well, still trying.

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The book she has given me to read is Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ". In an initial look thru when she first gave it to me, I was able to bring several points to her attention, i.e. the one sided "investigation", the simplistic "proofs" in the first chapter, and the acceptance of the "proofs" in the first to bolster those in the subsequent chapters.I have read several online refutations of this book, including Bidstrup, and Lowder.Does anyone know of any other accessable reviews/refutations of this book to help bolster the notations I am writing for her in the margins of this book? Do any of you have any other information that might not have made it into these refutations?Thanks again for all your help.______________________
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Platoedited to add signature and fix typos[This message has been edited by Asgara, 06-27-2003][This message has been edited by Asgara, 06-27-2003]

Another online critique of Strobel is Richard Packham's here :
http://home.teleport.com/~packham/strobel.htmIt's short, but it does point out the basic flaws.Earl Doherty wrote a longer critique which is now a book. Excerpts are still available online at
http://human.st/jesuspuzzle/CTVExcerptsIntro.htmRichard Carrier has written on some of the points raised at infidels.org. (his writing are indexed at Page not found » Internet Infidels) His essays on Thallus and The Date of the Nativity in Luke are relevant - the alleged "micrographic letters" raised by McRay are discussed in the latter, and shown to be entirely imaginary. That point alone might be worth raising - if McRay accepts such a dubious claim his scholarship is called into serious question. As is Strobel's critical eye.