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Author | Topic: Did Jesus exist, Part II | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The site claims that the passage from Tacitus is a fraud. Christians were not called Christians during Nero's time, about which Tacitus, if it is Tacitus, is writing. Gibbon said that Tacitus may have been conflating his time with the time of Nero. (circa 60 versus 120 AD).
It appears from the Book of Acts that the term "Christians" was used earlier than the reign of Nero:
quote: The prophecy was for the days of Claudius who ruled BEFORE Nero. Therefore they were called "Christians" both before and during the reign of Nero. The mention of the name "Christians" refers to a time either before or about the time this prophecy was given. Claudius ruled from 41 to 54, Nero from 54 to 68: Roman Britain - Organisation This message has been edited by Faith, 01-11-2006 04:35 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The site was put up by Lfen, who asked Robin to comment on it. I believe it should be dismissed as beyond deserving consideration.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-11-2006 04:47 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Let us examine the passage from Josephus minus the later additions (according to my author):
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. My author argues that this is probably genuine. He quotes another scholar who calls the tone "fairly neutral--even purposely ambigious." This, he claims, is the typical style of Josephus. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-11-2006 03:43 PM
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
Mystery religions?, did you bother to read the page i linked?
Budhism was pretty wide spread over the middle east infact a popular story in christianity comes from buddhas life You can ignore that other reiigions had effect on the teachings of people in the middle east, but you wouldn't be very truthful {ABE: off topic i guess lol} This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-11-2006 05:32 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes I read it, skimmed it anyway, but I'd read tons of that sort of stuff before I became a Christian. The similarities claimed are very slight and forced, and the differences are enormous. And yes it is off topic.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ooops. Too sarcastic so I censored myself.
Suffice it to say I think the quote is convincing. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-11-2006 05:39 PM
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
It's still positive - it calls Jesus a "wise man" and that he was a "teacher of those who accept the truth gladly". It can be read as saying that the crucifixion was undeserved. It's so positive that if it were genuine I would expect that one of the early Christian writers would have mentioned it if it were the actual text.
It is also so positive that it suggests that the author is at least sympathetic to Christianity - which makes it surprising that Jsoephus did not write more about Christianity. In my view it is more likely that the whole passage is an interprolation or it was so negative that Christian writers were loathe to refer to it.g
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Can you give an example of Josephus' being very very negative about something? Maybe he's just a judicious sort of fellow who likes to get along with everybody. He spent his time currying favor with the Caesars anyway, and would have no particular reason to stand on his Pharisaical beliefs to them, since they wouldn't be in a position to appreciate them. His history is a celebration of the Jews after all. Far better to present a generous view of all things Jewish, including a Jewish pretender to be the Messiah.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-11-2006 05:50 PM
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ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yes, Peter Kirby gave both sides of the arguement. That was one side. The other side had
quote: and
quote: And a number of other arguements that cast doubt on the authticity of the phrase 'Jesus, the one called christ"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
He comments that the arguments are weak, which they are. But it would help a lot if you would provide links. It's hard to figure out what you are referring to.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 642 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, that is not what is found at Josephus and Jesus: The Testimonium Flavianum Question.
Peter kirby did both sides of the stories, and gives really good arugments that antiquites 18 is an insertion. Even many conservativescholars admit it is at least modified. Since that is case, what evidence is there that it existed before the 4th century?
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Robin,
There is the NT plus the few citations from Josephus and Tacitus. Faith accepts the witness of the NT as per church doctrine. I also pointed you towards the yahoo group JesusMysteries which focus exclusively on the early centuries of Christianity and what was going on largely based on the writings of Church Fathers such as Polycarp and Ingatius. It's dense textual analysis looking to see if they cite or seem to know, or quote, or even plagiarize from the Gospels. There is the official church story which the devout tend to believe without questioning and the skeptical like myself pretty much doubt unless prodded to question largely because I had to read Augustine once for a class and some of the early fathers and the prospect of having to read that kind of stuff again bores me solid. I'll put this forth as my opinion and impression because as far as I can tell it would take a lot of digging in musty scholarship for me to say I knew much of this. It's based on my common sense, what I know of history and the way people, societies, and religious hierarchies work. There was lots of intrigue, in fighting and politics going on in those early centuries. It's pretty clear that many early Christians didn't think of Jesus as a man of flesh. There have been some Christians here and as I understand the Jehovah Witnesses don't accept the notion of the trinity. Well that belief was in those times also. The winners of these political struggles wrote the history and often destroyed competing versions. The outcome of the struggle and Constantine's making Christianity the state religion has huge historical impact until right now and for a long time to come. What I am suggesting is that there is lot more going on and the doubts about Josephus and Tacitus point to this vast struggle to define the religion. Because of the dominance of the church there is not a lot of popular works written that study this history skeptically. I think most of the analysis is conducted in journals. I think Doherty's mythicist position is possible but it's not provable. Lots of people Jews and Greek were thinking apocalyptically. There was a lot of religious ferment going on. It was only when the Church became the state and Christian intolerance lead to vigorous suppression of competing beliefs did the variety of that time disappear. It's hard getting a picture of that time and the NT offers a very limited one sided picture. Jesus was a common name. And there were more than one Messiah in that time period. I think the origins of Christianity will always be shrouded because the documentation just doesn't exist. It doesn't matter whether or not Jesus existed. Christianity exists. That much we know.
My author argues that this is probably genuine. And others will argue if it was genuine why wasn't it quoted centuries earlier? They suspect that it is probably a Christian addition. And that's about all we can say. It probably .... and you takes yer choice. lfen
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
It doesn't matter whether or not Jesus existed. Christianity exists. That much we know. I would think it would matter to Christians. But apparently, some do not feel that way. If Jesus did not exist, then Christ is a concept or sentiment or a slogan. If Jesus didn't exist, then somebody made that story up. Who made up such a story? It's much more reasonable to think that someone corresponding to Jesus existed and was executed, that he was a remarkable person about whom legends accumulated.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
It's much more reasonable to think that someone corresponding to Jesus existed and was executed, that he was a remarkable person about whom legends accumulated. Well, I'm about 60/40 with you on that. Still, I'm 40 per cent tantalized by Doherty's almost compelling case that Paul was talking exclusively about a mystical metaphysical Christ. There were for certain a number of messiahs executed by the Romans. Palestine gave them all kinds of grief. There is also the visits of Buddhist missionaries to that area at about that time. It was a time of extraordinary tumult. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is also the visits of Buddhist missionaries to that area at about that time. Somebody claimed this but I don't remember any evidence for it. Can you provide some? {abe: Never mind, off topic.} This message has been edited by Faith, 01-12-2006 01:06 AM
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