How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven?

shrafinator writes, "That bit in the Bible also says that Jesus' followers can drink poison and not be harmed.

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Any of you Biblical literalists willing to drink some Drano?"Not me, thank you. (I'm a fundamentalist Christian YEC).It is unfortunate that there are Christians such as those that you portray here (and there are lots of them!). If this sounds judgmental, it isn't... it's merely a statement of fact.Scripture is to be read and understood in its totality and not any one section at a time isolated from the rest of the Bible. It is the faulty practice of 'selective reading' that has caused a great deal of confusion and false doctrine to be created/propagated.For instance, these people read Mark 16:18 (handling snakes and drinking poison) but have not read or understood Matthew 4:4-7 where Jesus Himself is tempted to throw Himself off the pinnacle of the temple. The devil shamelessly quotes Scripture to Jesus (Psalm 91:11) reminding Him that God (the Father) would send angels to insure His safety. How did Christ reply? Basically saying that it is ALSO written that one does not tempt God.These snake handlers are thus tempting God - in essence making Him 'prove' that His Word is true every time they handle a deadly snake. That practice is NOT pleasing to God.I hope you now understand.Joralex[This message has been edited by Joralex, 09-08-2003][This message has been edited by Joralex, 09-08-2003]

So then, Joralex, to bring things back on track, do you have an answer to the question 'How can we possibly be happy in Heaven?'.And, if you wouldn't mind, another of my own, tell me if I got anythin wrong. There is no sin in heaven, yes? All men are sinners, yes? How then can I go to heaven? I am a sinner, there is no sin in heaven, therfore either I can't be in heaven, or I must be changed in order to go to heaven, thereby ceasing to be me?

Mr. Jack wrote: "So then, Joralex, to bring things back on track, do you have an answer to the question 'How can we possibly be happy in Heaven?'." I do but it may not satisfy you. Brian's specific concern had to do with the thought of "loved ones" not being in heaven while a person was so I'll reply to that point only.

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The answer involves the marriage of two aspects. First, Scripture tells us that in heaven we will have a knowledge and understanding of Reality that we cannot even imagine here on Earth. Second, we must examine the definition of 'happiness'.

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Defining 'happiness' in earthly terms is an obvious dead-end since happiness is different things to different people. In jest (maybe not) some people have said, "If you're there then it won't be heaven." Others have said, "If you're there then it won't be hell." Bottom line, both expressions are meaningless - heaven is Heaven because GOD is there and that's all that matters. Hell is hell because God isn't there and that too is all that matters.

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Even here on Earth we know of the millions of starving people around the globe yet we are able to have some happiness in our lives. How can this be? Consider also that when children prefer to play but their parents 'force' them to do homework, this child 'suffers'. Does this 'suffering' make the parent unhappy? In short, conflicts often occur when things are defined in earthly terms instead of in Scriptural terms. God works with HIS definitions, not ours.

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[BTW, the above examples were very crude and cannot possibly convey the full message of how anyone may be 'happy' when others are 'suffering'.]

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I hold that a knowledge and understanding surpassing anything imaginable is what will turn this 'theory' into living Reality in heaven. This answer suffices me for now.

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I realize that this answer won't satisfy many people and to those people I ask, why isn't it sufficient for you? Don't you know that God has seen it fit that certain things aren't to be revealed until the appointed time? Will we dictate to God when that appointed time shall be?And, if you wouldn't mind, another of my own, tell me if I got anythin wrong. There is no sin in heaven, yes? Yes.All men are sinners, yes? Yes - all men on Earth are sinners.How then can I go to heaven? Ah... a good question with a very lengthy reply (if all details, background and explanations are provided). But here's the punch line :

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Nothing that any of us by ourselves can do will get us into heaven - nothing! So God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to do what we cannot do - cleanse sin from our lives. The 'old person' must die and then be re-born in Jesus Christ. Through this gift (grace) of God we are able to be reunited with Him since we are now free of sin. And this grace from God is available to all that confess their state (of sin) and have a heart-filled acceptance and confession of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

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Salvation is a gift - by the grace of God we are saved and only thus - so that no man shall boast. There is no other way into heaven.I am a sinner, there is no sin in heaven, therfore either I can't be in heaven, Yes, you can be in heaven if you are first cleansed of sin. That is what Jesus Christ did for us but must now be accepted and confessed.or I must be changed in order to go to heaven, thereby ceasing to be me? In a way you are correct - you DO "cease to be you". We are re-born... new creatures in God... the earthly man dying so that the spiritual man in God may have life.

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There are many ways to express this 'transformation' but the important thing to keep in mind is that it is real. So real is it that history is filled with millions of people whose lives were changed forevermore, even unto (physical) death.

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Some choose to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ while others choose to reject it. That's the end of story, Mr. Jack.

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Joralex

You seem to have covered everything except the part about where to send my money. ------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

"You seem to have covered everything except the part about where to send my money."Then let me cover that one right now, I don't want any dissatisfied customers : Send/spend your money wherever your 'heart' is. If your heart belongs to the world of material things then send/spend it there - I assure you that you'll get no argument from me or from God.There... now I've covered everything at least as far as doctrbill is concerned! Joralex

Thank you for your prompt, diplomatic and humorous reply.db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

Excellent answer, Joralex.

Brian : Well I do have ‘an’ understanding of the issue, but what I requested was how other people ‘understand’ it.As for ‘such bad feedback’, I tend to disagree as I consider ANY feedback at all as positive. If someone takes the time to reply to a message of mine, I fully appreciate his or her time and effort. Prozac related some of his/her life experiences, to me these are valuable, that someone would take time to think back and put into words what they experienced and pass it on to me, makes me very thankful.I realise that Prozac’s replies may be negative in some people’s opinion, but this is reality, where good and bad things happen. Ok, since you have read a ‘vast number’ of my posts, you will have a good idea of why I have my opinions about the Bible and God. Do you think that, for example, that my opinion about the Bible being unreliable as a source for reconstructing accurate history is totally unfounded, or do I have a sound basis for my scepticism?The reason I have a ‘firmly-established’ position is because I have researched these issues for myself, I have not just sat and allowed myself to become indoctrinated with any old garbage. I question things, and I try to do it as objectively as is humanly possible. These studies have led me to conclusions that I am very happy with and if anyone has to go invoking the supernatural to convince me otherwise then of course I am not going to take them seriously. This is a bit confusing, you appeared to have already reached the conclusion that: 'the vast number of posts of yours that I've read plainly tell me that nothing that you hear will make you change your mind’, so if I said that I was interested in your answer would you believe me?Give me some indication that you are willing to listen to my point of view over this and I will be more inclined to speak about it with you. I am free to listen to whomever I wish anyway, I really don’t need your permission, but I would like as much input as possible, so you answer would be appreciated as much as anyone else’s, thanks. Well I will have to take your word for this as I haven’t been there myself, but I am very sceptical about second hand stories. Could you please give biblical references for this please, I would like to examine them myself?This ‘new understanding of reality’ in what way makes us forget about our loved ones in Hell?Is there a chance that this ‘new understanding’ could give us a greater insight into how Hell works and therefore make us even more unhappy? Sorry, but we need to define happiness ONLY in relation to the question I asked. I’d say that in the context of the question that the definition of ‘happiness’ is very clear. In context it asks if we can be have true peace and contentment knowing that some of our loved ones are suffering in Hell. You appear to miss the point of the question. I specifically asked if people could be happy in heaven knowing that their loved ones were suffering in Hell. All other little ‘add-ons’ that you have provided are not part of my original question, I specifically narrowed the question down to one point. This has absolutely nothing to do with my question. Yes they are also meaningless in regard to the question I asked as well. Thanks for clearing this up then, it confirms my opinion that I am too nice a person to be a Christian. It may be well and good that this is Heaven because I am here and God is present, so who cares about anyone else, sounds a very selfish attitude to me. Maybe we need to look at the definition of ‘Heaven’, could it be, ‘a place where I am happy with God and to Hell with everyone else?’ Well probably because we don’t think about these people every minute of the day, we have many other things in our lives to deal with. For example, taking care of the people we love, looking after our family, being with the people we care about most because we don’t want to be parted from them. Although, through my job. I do actually think about these people who need help for at least a few hours every week.
The difference here is that these people, although we all get very sad when images of them are broadcast, they are not out family or our loved ones; it is heartbreaking that these people are dying in terrible ways but there is that distance between us, they are not as close to us as our family. In the time it has taken me to write this reply to you probably dozens of children have died of starvation or disease, but we are not in deep mourning about that, but if, hypothetically speaking, your mother or wife died you would be devastated. My mum died when I was 14 and for the next 4 years I was a total mess, I hardly even remember anything that happened during that period, that’s how distraught I was, I would obviously not be in the same condition if someone I didn’t know died. Yes they are very crude.Unfortunately for your position we only have an earthly definition for these things, your God doesn’t appear to address the problem at all. Thank you for sharing your theory with me, I will add it to all the other theories and consider it, I appreciate you sharing your beliefs on the topic. It isn’t sufficient for me because:1. You haven’t provided any Bible references to support answer.
2. Your examples are very crude and do not even address the issue.
3. You have not said how our new knowledge of reality would make us happy, for all you know we could be even more devastated and even more unhappy with this new knowledge. Why is God keeping secrets? Well we have dictated everything else that God does so why not this?Thanks again for your post. If you could give some references to the texts that support your viewpoint it would be appreciated. Also, if you could say why you think this new knowledge makes us happy I’d be interested, and, in future, if you could address the question instead of going off on tangents then we could save a lot of time and effort.Brian.Edited for formatting issues![This message has been edited by Brian, 09-09-2003][This message has been edited by Brian, 09-09-2003]

Well I do have ‘an’ understanding of the issue, but what I requested was how other people ‘understand’ it. That was understood.As for ‘such bad feedback’, I tend to disagree as I consider ANY feedback at all as positive. If someone takes the time to reply to a message of mine, I fully appreciate his or her time and effort. Prozac related some of his/her life experiences, to me these are valuable, that someone would take time to think back and put into words what they experienced and pass it on to me, makes me very thankful. My 'bad feedback' comment concerned content, not the fact that someone took the time. If someone is contemplating suicide and was seeking input on the matter, 'bad' feedback would be "Sure, go ahead and end it all, life is worthless anyway."I realise that Prozac’s replies may be negative in some people’s opinion, but this is reality, where good and bad things happen. That much is certainly true.Ok, since you have read a ‘vast number’ of my posts, you will have a good idea of why I have my opinions about the Bible and God. Do you think that, for example, that my opinion about the Bible being unreliable as a source for reconstructing accurate history is totally unfounded, or do I have a sound basis for my scepticism? I said a "vast number", not necessarily "everything". I don't know what you've read or what your experiences have been. I DO know that there is more than sufficient evidence for concluding that the Bible IS reliable... that Jesus Christ is a real historical figure and that He is who many claim Him to be (God).

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Again, I don't know what you've read but I could supply you with a sizeable bibliography of research and evidence that supports what I've just stated. The fact that you've done a lot of research already says that you are 'seeking' - that's good.The reason I have a ‘firmly-established’ position is because I have researched these issues for myself, I have not just sat and allowed myself to become indoctrinated with any old garbage. I question things, and I try to do it as objectively as is humanly possible. These studies have led me to conclusions that I am very happy with and if anyone has to go invoking the supernatural to convince me otherwise then of course I am not going to take them seriously.
Give me some indication that I'm wrong and I'll be more inclined to speak about it with you. Tall order! In a way I cannot and will not say that you are wrong. The fact that you "question things" is very good - God is agreeable with that ('Come and let us reason together...', He says). I myself question things all the time.

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What I will ask you to consider is HOW you question. You used the words "as objectively as humanly possible" and right there you might consider doing some serious examination. If in your heart you've already concluded that God 'isn't' then you may be on a mission to support that conclusion rather than on a mission to refute it. Just something to think about...This is a bit confusing, you appeared to have already reached the conclusion that ‘, the vast number of posts of yours that I've read plainly tell me that nothing that you hear will make you change your mind’, so if I said that I was interested in your answer would you believe me? Why wouldn't I? However, being interested in someone's answer logically doesn't (necessarily) imply that you are inclined to change your mind, does it?I am free to listen to whomever I wish anyway, I really don’t need your permission Uh, that's what I had said..., but I would like as much input as possible, so you answer would be appreciated as much as anyone else’s, thanks. And you have it... you're welcome.Well I will have to take your word for this as I haven’t been there myself, but I am very sceptical about second hand stories. That's okay.The answer involves the marriage of two aspects. First, Scripture tells us that in heaven we will have a knowledge and understanding of Reality that we cannot even imagine here on Earth.Could you please give biblical references for this please, I would like to examine them myself? 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 is an excellent place to start. This ‘new understanding of reality’ in what way makes us forget about our loved ones in Hell? I never said that it would "make us forget". God doesn't "forget" about them, does He?

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What this "new understanding" allows us to do is to 'understand' in such a way that we may continue to exist without being eternally tormented by this knowledge. The crude examples that I provided in the last post were meant to show how even here on Earth happiness is possible even though there is suffering and death.

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BTW, I certainly don't agree with those that say that God will simply cause us to 'forget' about these people. God is not a deceiver and we will certainly remember. But we will also 'understand' and it is this understanding that will make all the difference.Is there a chance that this ‘new understanding’ could give us a greater insight into how Hell works and therefore make us even more unhappy? Not at all. The 'understanding' that I'm referring to isn't about an isolated thing - it's about the "Totality"... about all of Reality. In short, we will see Reality as it is as opposed to any partial and erroneous interpretation.

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While hell has been described in many ways, no one on Earth knows exactly what 'hell' is in its totality. Scripture gives us "something" in words that we can relate to, nothing more. There is much in Scripture that is that way - it has to be - since our finite minds cannot even pretend to visualize certain aspects of Reality.Sorry, but we need to define happiness ONLY in relation to the question I asked. I’d say that in the context of the question that the definition of ‘happiness’ is very clear. In context it asks if we can be have true peace and contentment knowing that some of our loved ones are suffering in Hell. I think you missed my point. Will they CONTINUE to be "loved ones"? Try this : in heaven we come to the full and complete understanding that anyone that opposes God is the enemy of God and since we in heaven love God then as enemies of God they become, in essence, our enemies.

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Is it possible for my wife, my children to become my enemy here on Earth? Of course it is - it's happened countless times that a wife, a child, a friend, etc... has betrayed the person even unto death. Now expand that analogy into the spiritual realm where a "loved one" becomes your bitter enemy because they chose to oppose God while you chose to accept Him.

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Your dilemma is resolved, Brian, since they would then cease to be a "loved one".

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To put it another way, will our love for the (created) creature that has opted to oppose God be above that of our love for the Creator? I am here suggesting that in our increased understanding we will no longer be inclined to love anything that is the enemy of our Lord God. The enemy of our Lord will be our spiritual enemy as well. You appear to miss the point of the question. I specifically asked if people could be happy in heaven knowing that their loved ones were suffering in Hell. All other little ‘add-ons’ that you have provided are not part of my original question, I specifically narrowed the question down to one point. Okay, and I've addressed that 'point' above.Thanks for clearing this up then, it confirms my opinion that I am too nice a person to be a Christian. It may be well and good that this is Heaven because I am here and God is present, so who cares about anyone else, sounds a very selfish attitude to me. Maybe we need to look at the definition of ‘Heaven’, could it be, ‘a place where I am happy with God and to Hell with everyone else?’ Your compassion towards others is noteworthy.

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You should realize that when people "preach" the Gospel of Jesus Christ to you, they are demonstrating a similar compassion. To wit : You're not even family but I do consider you a "loved one". I don't want you or anyone else to end up in hell, so I'll "preach". It's definitely NOT "to hell with everyone else".

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As I hope you've seen, there is no need for that (new) definition of heaven... my hypothetical scenario resolves your question. Well probably because we don’t think about these people every minute of the day, we have many other things in our lives to deal with. For example, taking care of the people we love, looking after our family, being with the people we care about most because we don’t want to be parted from them. Although, through my job. I do actually think about these people who need help for at least a few hours every week.
The difference here is that these people, although we all get very sad when images of them are broadcast, they are not out family or our loved ones; it is heartbreaking that these people are dying in terrible ways but there is that distance between us, they are not as close to us as our family. In the time it has taken me to write this reply to you probably dozens of children have died of starvation or disease, but we are not in deep mourning about that, but if, hypothetically speaking, your mother or wife died you would be devastated. My mum died when I was 14 and for the next 4 years I was a total mess, I hardly even remember anything that happened during that period, that’s how distraught I was, I would obviously not be in the same condition if someone I didn’t know died. Thanks for being so open here, Brian, I sincerely appreciate it. My own mum died just over a year ago and I still cry about it - she was the light of my eyes here on Earth. It's really odd: I know exactly where she is (with out Lord - she was the best Christian I've ever known bar none) yet I miss her so much. It's actually selfishness on my part. By the way, I lost my dad when I was 14.

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It's great that you have so much love for certain people. What's really hard is to expand that love for all - including those that despise you. THAT is the love that Christ speaks about. Trust me, I have to work on it every single moment and even then I fail miserably!Yes they are very crude.
Unfortunately for your position we only have an earthly definition for these things, your God doesn’t appear to address the problem at all. Oh but He does. It's just that part of the 'answer' isn't liked.Thank you for sharing your theory with me, I will add it to all the other theories and consider it, I appreciate you sharing your beliefs on the topic. You're welcome. Just one thing - it isn't "my" theory, it's the Word of God.It isn’t sufficient for me because:
1. You haven’t provided any Bible references to support answer. That's easily remedied. I generally don't provide Bible references right off the get-go because many times I get, "Why are you quoting from a book that I don't believe in." Since now I know that you value Scriptural references then you shall have them. Fair enough?2. Your examples are very crude and do not even address the issue. I'll try to come up with better examples.3. You have not said how our new knowledge of reality would make us happy, for all you know we could be even more devastated and even more unhappy with this new knowledge. I believe that I've suggested (earlier) how this could be possible. It's just one of a number of possible scenarios. Why is God keeping secrets? Excellent question! (although I wouldn't phrase it quite that way).

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One answer is that certain "secrets" would not be understood by us even if He spelled them out for us. They are simply beyond human understanding. Analogy : try explaining Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, in mathematical terms, to a first-grader.

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Second answer: He has a purpose that is fulfilled by keeping certain things concealed until the "right" time. Analogy : If I want to surprise my wife on her birthday, I don't reveal my plans to her a month before the day, do I?

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Third answer: He is "testing and/or purifying" our faith. It's far easier to have faith when everything is right there on the table... it is much harder to have faith when we must truth in Him without being able to "see" the answer. Without faith it is impossible to please God and He will sometimes test us in this. He did so to Abraham and to many other Biblical figures and we should expect that He will do it in our own lives.Well we have dictated everything else that God does so why not this? You've lost me here.Thanks again for your post. If you could give some references to the texts that support your viewpoint it would be appreciated. Also, if you could say why you think this new knowledge makes us happy I’d be interested, and, in future, if you could address the question instead of going off on tangents then we could save a lot of time and effort. Hopefully I've herein provided what you ask. As for "going off on tangents", that is never my intent - sometimes a tangent is not as 'tangential' as may appear.

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Be well.

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Jorge

Sorry This Is A late Response, I was away For the weekend. You know, I would also be surprised if "Enoch" was the earliest literature on hell. As I have read in, "From Jesus to Christ", and "When Jesus Became God", the book of Enoch does say that hell is a firey place of punishment, and the Essenes did teach this. According to these books and also Josephus' writings, the Essenes were destroyed as a religious sect when Ceasar Titus and the Roman army took over Israel and sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although "Enoch" could have been authored by the Essene community, and I do agree that the story of the rich man and Lazarus probably came from "Enoch", I also agree that the idea of hell came into Judaism, and later, Christianity, through a number of earlier sources. These sources, to name a couple, were the exposure of the ancient Jews to the Babylonian Captivity (i.e. Daniel, etc.),where they were exposed not only to Babylonian religion (the gods Marduk, Tiamat, etc.) but also the Persian religion of Zoroasterianim which taught separation of good and evil, fire worship and all that. Another source was the greek idea of hades which is not the hell of the New Testament, but comes out of greek mythology. one may consult Homer's "Odysse" on this.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-09-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-09-2003]

Hi, Whether it was ‘bad feedback’ is a matter of opinion, Prozac’s post contained information related to my question, hence it was valuable content which took time to compose. Yes, indeed it would (although it could probably call their bluff if this was a cry for help), however, this example has nothing to do with Prozac’s post. This I am interested in. In relation to the Old Testament, if you any references to archaeological evidence, non-biblical texts or any anthropological evidence that you feel supports the historicity of the Old Testament, then I would dearly love to see them. A bibliography would be fine, I should be able to pick up any material of a decent academic standard from the libraries I use.Evidence for Jesus is something I am not really interested in, and anyway, if the Old Testament is unreliable then it follows that the New is as well. If you really wanted to discuss the reliability of the Old Testament, I’d be happy to open a thread on the topic. As I am sure you will agree, everyone is subjective to a certain degree, however, anything that I write from my research is scrutinised by my advisor at university, so he does try to keep me balanced. Yes, this is a danger on a theological level, and indeed I know ‘in my heart’ that there is no God, I know this just as strongly as you know in your heart that there is a God. But on a historical level, I conclude that there really is no doubt amongst scholars that the early history of Israel as portrayed in the Bible is grossly erroneous, I could not come to a conclusion like this if there was convincing contrary evidence, trust me I have looked for it. If you can provide contrary evidence then I will seriously consider it, but I really think I have read almost everything from the maximalist camp.
Anyway, we are all guilty of bias, I do not doubt that you are on a mission to support your conclusion that God is behind everything in the universe, nothing at all will ever convince you otherwise, if I am wrong about this then tell me what would convince you that there is no God. I just don’t see the point of it, why have a conclusion then continue anyway, you already know what the outcome would be? Probably just one of my faults. This verse doesn’t imply how we are going to be happy when our loved ones are in Hell, it does say that the imperfection will pass, but the perfection could be that we are chuckling away along with God whilst our loved ones fry. God’s idea of perfection is obviously different from ours, it could be that His perfection is a severely twisted one.Also, I am not convinced that Paul ever let go of the ‘child’ in him, he seems a very gullible man to me. Doesn’t He? Why would he bother remembering them, they are lost to Him remember, they have made their choice, there is no free will after you die (Crashfrog). I cannot imagine how this could possibly be true, we may understand, for example, that these people deserve to be eternally tormented, but for it not to trouble you is beyond me. I can deal with my mother’s death because I believe that her existence is extinguished and she isn’t in pain anymore, but I cannot imagine that God having a valid reason for frying her would ever be acceptable to me. But I do see where you are coming from and it is a good answer, thanks. Yes but I don’t think anyone is happy when very closed family and/or friends are the objects of this suffering and death, as I said, we can cope because these people are not immediate family. Well this will be a good trick if He can pull it off, I don’t see how understanding will in anyway ease the pain. I understand that my mother may have died from cancer because she smoked all her life, it doesn’t mean that I say ‘oh well she got what she deserved!’
Is there a chance that this ‘new understanding’ could give us a greater insight into how Hell works and therefore make us even more unhappy? But this still could make us unhappy, to see things as they really are might be a total nightmare. Yes I feel that the concept of Hell has changed drastically throughout the evolution of the Bible, I think that Plotinus’ Neo-Platonism certainly gave Christianity a great weapon for spreading the faith. Well IF this is the understanding we come to then the question is redundant, but there is no indication in the Bible that this is the case. It is difficult to imagine that I am going to hate my brother, who will no doubt be in Hell as we speak, just because he decided that God isn’t for him, although I concede that this new understanding would allow me to do so.Understanding that they are enemies of God might help us to understand why He has decided to torture them, but will it wipe away all those memories of your mum kissing your knee where you fell, her loving hugs when you wake from a bad dream, the sacrifices she made so you could have a safe and loving home, taking her breakfast in bed on a Sunday morning, opening Christmas presents together, holidays together, the list is endless, and God wants me to think of her as an enemy. This is horrendous, I will keep my memories and God can do what He wants. (sorry for the mini rant!)It just seems so utterly pointless, God knows everything, He knows before the first man was created exactly who is going to spend eternity with Him and who isn’t, this nonsense in the middle is just shows how incompetent God is. Cut out the middle man and let God have His ego massaged by his robots now, instead of all this silly messing about. Yes, but this usually involves a little more than them telling you that your God doesn’t exist. I really do not see how this analogy can be supported by scripture. When on earth God promotes loving you enemies, ‘do good to those who hate you’, then all of a sudden we hate these people? It looks as if God’s chosen people are not that nice at all. If this is accurate, yes it does. However, it creates a few other dilemmas! LOL Oh I realise the intention behind the preaching, what I don’t appreciate is the ‘over the top’ condemnation when someone rejects the gospel. What I don’t appreciate is people stopping me in the street and asking me if I have ‘Jesus in my life,’ and when I say ‘no’ they start to tell me about Christian beliefs as if I hadn’t heard it before, and when you inform them that you know all about the Gospel, they continue anyway, and being a polite person I end up listening to it all again! Although they do not always get it easy after their spiel is finished. I am sorry about your mum, the pain does lessen some, but I still get upset about it at certain times of the year, and this is 25 years later. I suppose this is some comfort for you, she will be safe and happy now. My dad died a couple of years after my mum, I think I was still mourning so much for my mum that it ‘softened’ the pain a little. Yes but it is precisely this love that Jesus promoted that we have to suddenly have to do a 180 turn on when we are in heaven. I am getting more understanding as I get older, but there are some people I dislike. Although I don’t actually hate anyone, I believe I do have the capacity to hate. Well you haven’t convinced my yet that He does address this. This has still to be demonstrated though Better still, try explaining the Trinity to 33 fourteen year olds who are not interested! lol Well if there is a God it will certainly be a surprise for me! I have never been convinced by this argument, it implies that God is not omniscient. A being that knows everything cannot actually ‘test’ anyone, because He knows what that individual will choose anyway. I should have explained this more. In my opinion, man has written the Bible and God is a figment of man’s imagination, therefore we actually control ‘God’. When something is discovered, certain people say that God decided it was time for us to find this. My opinion is that we are giving credit to an entity that we have created, hence my claim that we dictate what God does and doesn’t do. Your post was excellent and very much appreciated, it has gave me a much better understanding of the subject. Although I will admit that it is a good answer, it is one that I have difficulty in believing as Truth, although you did state that it is our limited understanding that causes this.Thanks again.Brian.

Well... if we're not laughing in heaven, we certainly are laughing on earth! No Drano, No Paino!! By the way, people who are fundamentalist-biblical-literalists(I was one) tend to think that other fundamentalist-biblical-literalists are on the wrong track about blood tranfusions. That is another example of how some people end up dead when taking the Bible too literally. I don't remember the passage, but it says something like "the life is in the blood". Maybe this passage is about genetics, but I don't think so. More likely, it's about evil spirits and blood-letting. What say you?

Enough of the jabber already. Since the overall forum is biblical innerancy or not, I'll give just one example (among many) why I think the Bible contains error.(stay tuned!) Hint: It has something to do with bad ol Judas.

IEnough of the jabber already. Since the overall forum is biblical innerancy or not, I'll give just one example (among many) why I think the Bible contains error.(stay tuned!) Hint: It has something to do with bad ol Judas." I can almost guess what it'll be (how Judas dies?).

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You've said several times now that you were once a fundamentalist Christian. I've known several "once-fundamentalist-Christians" and invariably they always received some really bad doctrine somewhere along the way and/or they never established a genuine relationship with God. I'm interested to see if you'll be the exception to this, Prozacman.

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As for (alleged) Biblical errors, sorry to rain on your parade but that argument simply doesn't hold any water except for those that choose to believe it in spite of vast evidence to the contrary.

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Have you personally researched this matter in depth or are you simply echoing from one of the many lists that circulate "proving", with hundreds of cases, how the Bible contains numerous discrepancies?

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Jorge

Have a nut, Joralex ...If anyone can crack this, or make it sound crackable, or simply persuade us that it doesn't need to be cracked; I'm sure you're the one to do it. Is this a contradiction?Is God visible or invisible?How can both be true at the same time?Can you answer this without resorting to the three-in-one theory? db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin