A fatal logical flaw in creationism?

Thank you for this advise.I was doing my best to understand TOE and all the other parts of it,but attitude doesn't help one tiny bit.
I said I was trying,and all that seems to be thrown at me is ugly words and attitude.
At least I learned more about science,so thats a plus,and I just bought a good hard back book on Geology,and a book about Darwin,so at least some good came out of all of this.I wish people had more patience here,but at least I have learned some things although you can't see that yet.

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Desdamona

O.K.,now that one I understood. You are correct.

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Desdamona

Look Lam,I don't see that the bible contradicts itself by saying the world is a circle,although to you it may or does appear this way.
Do any of us write perfect descriptions of things when we are trying to tell a message?

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Desdamona

For whatever it's worth, the following is message 1 of this "wonderfully" titled topic, in its entirety:

quote:

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f we are too complex and thus must be created by God, then who created God? A super God? Or is it just us?

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A fatal logical flaw?

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We created God, not the other way round!
We created many Gods, but One God tries to rule us all!

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Hmmmmm.... this is begining to sound like poetry from LOTR...
It wasn't intentional.

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I'm not into poetry but let me try.

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God created us,
But who created God?
A super God?
Or is it just us?
It's us! it's us!
We created God,
Not the other way round!
We created many Gods,
But one God tries to rule us all!

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Hehehe... Any suggestion on how to improve on it?

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Adminnemooseus

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The Moses with horns came from the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible (made by St. Jerome on the orders of Pope Damasus I, 5th century) used for a lengthy time over Europe. The error occurs in Exodus 34:29 and 35 from the word "qaran" which was translated as horns in the LV, I believe it was supposed to be a beam of light (corrected in the KJ). This Bible was not used by some random Pagans, it was the basis of all bibles, for latin, until the Reformation (1500 AD). In fact the statue I have in my avatar is not just some random statue either, it was done by Michelangelo. Many other statues are found through-out Europe. Translation errors were and are possible. Here is a huge problem. Science does not deal with "proofs", math deals with "proofs". I feel you should first get a basic understanding of what science is before saying things like, finding a theory to be a "proven fact of life". This should get you started on understanding what "science" is. "The fact that a theory passed an empirical test does not prove the theory, however. The greater the number of severe tests a theory has passed, the greater its degree of confirmation and the more reasonable it is to accept it. However, to confirm is not the same as to prove logically or mathematically. No scientific theory can be proved with absolute certainty." You didn't copy and paste the information? Yet you just said your cousin emailed it to you. So, you did copy and paste it then, and as the website stated it was an email floating around. Remind yourself who brought up every-single one of these initial arguments. Wouldn't God?Back to original topic: Let me play devil's advocate and ask: If time did not exist, would something need a beginning?[This message has been edited by Garf, 04-22-2004]

O, Desdamona...?BOOOOH!{added by edit} Now that I've done away with the horns, the goatee and the red glaring eyes, I guess this message makes little sense anymore. But what the hell(!), I'll just leave it be.[This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 04-22-2004]

Yes,that is true on the most part it appears,but we must use caution about what we call the true church.All christians didn't believe in paganism,though it does appear that way to a large degree.
O.K. I think I am starting to understand some of the basic ideas.
I didn't copy and paste the information,I just re-wrote the information from the e-mail that I printed out.
I believe that there had to be a first.God didn't need a creator,although with our human minds that is hard for us to understand.

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Desdamona

Parasomnium,really good one!
If you tickle my funny bone too much,I'll break down and cry.Please be careful,o.k?

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Desdamona

Well....it's all in the way you see it.
I really don't think God wants to rule us,because he could do that.
We could all be robots,but we are not.
God wants us to love him because we want to,he doesn't want to make us.Only those who take God seriously would believe that the Lake of Fire truly exists,so I don't believe God is trying to scare anyone.
Don't you think there had to be a first person?

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Desdamona

I think many people could benefit from a guide like this. I'm happy to see some folks have already found it helpful.However, to be frank, you have much more serious problems than formatting to worry about. I just posted a little rant, and spelt out some of those problems. I submitted it as a new topic, because it belongs in the Free For All forum. It would not be apprppriate for me to rant like that here.I'm completely serious in that rant. You think about it. I remain ready to engage with mutual respect; but this thread is now dead, since people cannot manage to stay on topic.Cheers -- Sylas

Wow,and all this time I thought it was you who had all the major problems. You and I are just going to see things differently,amen.

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Desdamona

So you admit it is illogical, therefore it requires faith to believe it. Am I right?More logical I think is that we created Gods to satisfy our very human needs.[This message has been edited by HoonWoo, 04-22-2004]

So which is it, Des? You are the one claiming "that God says the earth is flat" now!

Yes, it is also important to recognize this period of the 5th century to the 16th century. This span of roughly 1,000 years is when Europe sees an extremely high amount of illiteracy (along with massive destruction of libraries, books, and knowledge). Most of the people in Europe during this time, by today's Christian standards, would be considered "pagans" because they practiced such things as indulgences (Give money to the church to pay off your sins). But it really wasn't their fault. They couldn't read the bible; they had no way of knowing what to believe other then what they were told by the elite clergy who could read. Not only that but this is before the printing press, bibles weren't exactly in mass circulation. In this time, being literate and being able to obtain a bible to read was extremely rare for the common folk, no one really had a choice of what to believe. That lasted a thousand years, and has only been vanquished in Europe a mere 500 years. I don't care if you used the copy/paste command or physically typed it out, that wasn't the point.Concerning that email, I tracked down where you quoted Madison talking about the Ten Commandments. It is on page 120 of The Myth of Separation, by David Barton. The footnote for where he got this quotation is: Harold K. Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939, pp. 32-33. Fedrick Nyneyer, First Principles in Morality and Economics: Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association South Holland" Libertarian Press, 1958, pp. 31.Not only are the footnotes from 20th century writers (2nd/3rd sourcing is dubious for this kind of stuff), the quote does not appear in the secondary source that these books claim it came from. One goes as far as to reference the quote to some 20th century spiritual calendar. No known writings of Madison or his biographers have ever mentioned this quote. In short, no one knows where it came from.Doing a search on Google for this nut, Barton, I found an article by Robert Alley (Public Education and the Public Good, William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal, 1995, pp. 316-318) which describes the hoax of this quote.As you can see, writing down emails you receive without sources is dubious and I advise you to avoid it in the future. When I made those two quotes from Madison they came from two books that were written from primary documents, which I referenced in my post. The quotes came from Madison's own letter, and his essay "Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments (1785)" which can be read online and you can find the quote yourself.Edit: Changed "advice" to "advise".[This message has been edited by Garf, 04-22-2004]

Yes,when you view it that way,but the same is true when you tell yourself that there is no God.We just want to know whats true about life and that truth isn't always easy to get at.
Since we cannot know all evidence,it is possible that evidence exists that proves God's existence;( I have had evidence in my life)or at least supports his existence.Therefore it is possible that God exists.If it is possible,then faith has it's place.Some may believe that it is possible that there is no evidence at all for God.But this cannot be stated absolutely,since all evidence would need to be known to show there is no evidence. Since all evidence cannot be known by any one person,it is possible that evidence exists that supports theism.
If you have not decided what evidence would be sufficient and reasonable,then you cannot state that there is no evidence for God.
If you have decided what evidence is sufficient,what is it?
Does christianity fit with within that criteria? If not,why not?
Is it possible that your criteria for evidence is unreasonable,like asking God to appear to you in blazing Glory?If he did,would you believe it,or think you were having an hallucination,or some sort of trick played on you? How would you know? Could you prove it?
Does your criteria put a requirment on logic that is not realistic? Do you want him to make square circles,or some other self-contradictory phenomena,or make a rock so big he cannot pick it up?
If God does exist,He has created the laws of logic.He cannot violate those laws.[This message has been edited by desdamona, 04-22-2004]

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Desdamona