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Author Topic:   Sharia Law and the west: Should it be allowed on a volunteer basis?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 46 of 306 (249013)
10-05-2005 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by CanadianSteve
10-04-2005 2:29 PM


Re: Interview with an expert on Sharia law
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I want to clarify what we are disagreeing on in this thread's topic. Just answer each statement simply with an agree or disagree...
1) Greater freedom to do what one wants according to one's own beliefs is democratic.
2) The ability to have voluntary alternative adjudication is a greater freedom.
3) Allowing alternative Sharia arbitration would not have forced anyone to follow Sharia law against their will, nor make it the secular law.
4) Guidelines could have been made with respect to alternative arbitration, such that the state could be confident all parties are voluntary participants.
5) Someone usurping voluntary choice or repressing you for your choice is commiting a crime which is antidemocratic.
6) Canada has just reduced voluntary choice, and so reduced freedom.
7) Allowing persons within multicultural nations to voluntarily choose alternative means of adjudication not only means greater freedom, but decreases friction between cultural minorities and the nation they live within.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-04-2005 2:29 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 10:05 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 48 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 10:33 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 87 by nwr, posted 10-06-2005 8:52 AM Silent H has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 47 of 306 (249069)
10-05-2005 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Silent H
10-05-2005 5:47 AM


Re: Interview with an expert on Sharia law
We'll have to diagree about that as well.
Steve

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 5:47 AM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 48 of 306 (249073)
10-05-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Silent H
10-05-2005 5:47 AM


Re: Interview with an expert on Sharia law
the problem is this: We will inevitably disagree. You will believe that you have proven points, that i consider anything but. Thus, we will disagree endlessly. What's the point? It would be like what the courts call "dueling affidavits", which they limit as a result. Better we state our opinions once or twice, then just ket it go.
But, I'll answer briefly your points:
"I want to clarify what we are disagreeing on in this thread's topic. Just answer each statement simply with an agree or disagree..."
"1) Greater freedom to do what one wants according to one's own beliefs is democratic."
Not necessarily. Where your wants and behaviour circumscribe the freedom of others, democracy has a right to limit your freedoms. You have to stop at a red light; you can't scream fire in a theatre; you can't sacrfice virgins as part of your religion, nor automatically give custody of children to fathers as part of your religion; etc.
"2) The ability to have voluntary alternative adjudication is a greater freedom."
Not necessarily. When "voluntary" needs to be put in quotes because women face undue pressure to "voluntarily" agree to arbitration, there is lesser freedom. And, second, where even religious faith makes a woman feel compelled to voluntarily agree to arbitration, even though the process is stacked against her with respect to many matters, and will rule contrary to her better interests and maybe her childrens's, and rule contrary to the legal protections she and her children would have in all other courts of the land, then there is lesser freedom.
"3) Allowing alternative Sharia arbitration would not have forced anyone to follow Sharia law against their will..."
Not necessarily, as I point out above, and as was a major argument of the Muslim women who opposed Sharia in Canada.
"nor make it secular law." True. But if Canada's Muslim population should continue growing substantially, as it is, a time would come where sharia law would become the law of substantial minority, thus making it tantamount to secular law.
"4) Guidelines could have been made with respect to alternative arbitration, such that the state could be confident all parties are voluntary participants."
No. This was not possible.
"5) Someone usurping voluntary choice or repressing you for your choice is commiting a crime which is antidemocratic."
Not necessarily, as demonstrated above. Moreover, Sharia law would not always support children's better interests as understood by canadian law. Yet, if both parents "voluntarily", or really voluntarily agreed to sharia law arbitration, that would be tough luck. For example, the children may have been born in canada. the parents divorce. Sharia gives the dad custody of the kids. he takes them back to the home country, against their will, and where they will live in a non democracy with fewer rights.
"6) Canada has just reduced voluntary choice, and so reduced freedom."
No. Just as certain restrictions on freedom vreate greater freedom for the majorty overall (e.g., you are freer because your neighbour is not allowed to steal your car; you are freer because your parents had to send you to school even if they would have preferred to exercise their freedom of choice to keep you home on the farm to work, etc),
"7) Allowing persons within multicultural nations to voluntarily choose alternative means of adjudication not only means greater freedom, but decreases friction between cultural minorities and the nation they live within."
Not necessarily. beyobnd a certain point, if immigrants choose to live apart from the society they come to, rather than assimilate, they will create conflcit and render the fabric of that society. This sharia law arbitration amtter is an example. canadians would have found a substantial minority amiong them living according to laws that innately conflict with both Canadian and democratic sensibilities. If Muslims living in canada live apaprt and separate, in time they would come to demand more and more independence, until serious strife ocurred. This is happening in europe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 5:47 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 11:28 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 49 of 306 (249095)
10-05-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by CanadianSteve
10-05-2005 10:33 AM


Re: Interview with an expert on Sharia law
You have twisted some of what I said, in order to make your arguments.
When discussing freedom I was refering to personal freedom and assuming such which does not conflict with the freedoms of others.
As far as children go, that is tricky but in no way shape or form does immediately giving custody to the father mean children are worse off nor that democracy was lessened. Within our democracy there were traditions (from place to place) where one spouse was more likely to get custody rather than the other, based on gender.
As far as pressure goes, that was a totally separate point. I made them separate to try and get at an underlying issue. Pressure is felt everywhere according to all sorts of local customs. I am uncertain how not allowing arbitration will change this. Wouldn't the then simply be pressured to voluntarily DO what would have been expected.
You are trying to have your cake and eat it to with this one. Either they are capable of being bullied and so it makes no difference whether you have arbitration or not as they'll be convinced to do what is expected culturally, or they are not capable of being coerced and so they can choose what they want.
You also state that muslim women argued that people would be forced, but how is that possible? I understand the personal bullying argument, but I saw no argument, and find it difficult to believe, that the gov't would force anyone to choose sharia arbitration.
No. This was not possible.
Please unpack this statement. Why would it be impossible to set up guidelines to ensure that any party agreeing to alternative arbitration is not being coerced?
you are freer because your parents had to send you to school even if they would have preferred to exercise their freedom of choice to keep you home on the farm to work
That is not being freer. I get nonexploitation protections are somewhat about freedom, but mandatory forms of education are not. I might note that people in some states here are free to educate at home.
if immigrants choose to live apart from the society they come to, rather than assimilate, they will create conflcit and render the fabric of that society.
This is something we could end up actually agreeing to disagree on. But I would like to know where you get this opinion.
I don't view different cultures living within one nation as inherently in conflict. Quite the opposite, historically it has always been an attempt to squash one boilerplate culture on people which has been the source of conflict.
The longest lasting empires have generally allowed cultural diversity, even if some formal/ritual allegiance to one central power (the state) was demanded.
You also seem to assume that the problem will generally be immigrants coming and and staying isolated. Yet the reality is within any state new cultures develop and often act in the same manner, isolating themselves in order to grow their own culture.
canadians would have found a substantial minority amiong them living according to laws that innately conflict with both Canadian and democratic sensibilities. If Muslims living in canada live apaprt and separate, in time they would come to demand more and more independence, until serious strife ocurred.
Okay, suppose we set into law that only ONE system is ever allowed, with no alternatives, and then those following sharia still grow in population and power. Then the result will be at some point the nation shifting to Sharia as the ONLY SYSTEM. Allowing alternatives protects minorities, including those that are currently majorities.
Not allowing Sharia as an alternative in no way creates a reduction in believers. I mean what in history would ever point to that as a result?
This is happening in europe.
I'm in Europe and I don't know what you are talking about. The strife I see is further stepping down on minorities, and reactions to that. Please give me an example of large communities of immigrants suddenly changing the laws and so causing strife with the "natural" population.
You can find people worrying about it and so giving reason to crack down on minorities, but hey that's been going on for ages, including mistreatment of jews in the past.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 10:33 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 50 of 306 (249108)
10-05-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Silent H
10-05-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Interview with an expert on Sharia law
This is what i mean when i say we simply cannot agree, and that discussion will go on and on without resolution. Since we've both stated our positions, it seems time to end this one. Until next time...
Steve

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 11:28 AM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 51 of 306 (249120)
10-05-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by CanadianSteve
10-03-2005 12:33 PM


Spencer disagrees with Marshall
"Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
Robert Spencer says there is no honest distinction between "extreme Sharia" and sharia. The difference is in the practise of it he says, but not in the actual law itself. Where it is practised moderately, Spencer argues, it is because of influences outside, rather than within, Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-03-2005 12:33 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 52 of 306 (249132)
10-05-2005 2:18 PM


When multiculturalism means the majority accomodates, but not immigrants
Multiculturalism is an idealist notion. It works as long as minorities essentially assimilate, while practising only symbols and relatively unimportant cultural traits, like cooking traditional dishes, playing traditional music or trying to keep the languauge alive as a second language at home. But when minorities resist assimilation, and want to practise essentials, like law and government, differently than the nation which welcomed them, serious issues arise. Because it takes a substantial population to demand changes in fundamental matters, like law and government, the process is gradual, increasing with demographic power.
Canada's Muslim population is fairly small, about 500,000 in a nation of 30 million. Thus, those who desire to form an islamic country within a western one, cannot yet make strident demands. Instead, they carefully choose their battles, hoping to win incrementally. The proposal for Sharia law arbitration in Ontario is an example. It cleverly asked for what orthodox jews and catholics already had: religious arbitration. But they knew that these jews and catholics are part and parcel of western civilization, that their laws reflect that, and that the arbitration to which they subscribed does not in any way materially differ from canadian laws. Indeed, that is why there was only support amongst all jews and catholics for religious arbitration, even amongst the vast majority who would never use it. Nor was there any popular opposition amongst non catholic and jews. In contrast Sharia law reflects another civilization (one born intending to supplant the judeo-Christian world, as it blatantly says in the koran), another set of sensibilities, and a form of law and governance that is not democratic. That is why democratically-minded muslims in canada and elsewhere were aghast at the proposal for Sharia law arbitration. That is why there were demonstrations against it in 100 nations, mainly european, where there was dread amongst democratically-minded European muslims about such a precedent being set. It is why the legislature of the canadian french province of Quebec passed unanimously a resolution presented by a muslim women member opposing sharia law.
The problem is that when we recognize threats to our western values, laws, governance and culture posed by minorities that would rather see us become them rather than convert, our decency, generosity and fair play handcuff us. Thus, when Ontario finally decided against Sharia law, it felt it also, for the sake of fair play, had to get rid of jewish and catholic religious arbitration - even though they posed no threat and faced no opposition over the 15 years it has existed. Thus, when france decided against jihabs in schools, it also felt compelled to ban large crosses and stars of david, even though they posed no issues.
There is a vital distinction to be drawn between immigrants who come to join and assimilate, and those who come to live apart, dreaming of taking us over from within. Democratically muslims come to join and assimilate. Non democratically minded muslims come intending to remain apart from ourselves in every respect, including identity, hoping - whether realistically or not - to take us over from within. They are the bitter age old enemies of these other Muslims and oursleves both. The ages old theological and political civil war within islam has arrived in our lands with immigrants representing both sides. The sharia law arbitration issue is a window on this much bigger, and potentially ominous, picture.
We subscribe to multiculturalism because it seems just so bloody nice. But the implications are sometimes, usually in fact, not understood. This unpleasant reality needs to be confronted.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 55 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 4:00 PM CanadianSteve has replied
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 53 of 306 (249135)
10-05-2005 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CanadianSteve
10-05-2005 2:18 PM


Typo correction
I wrote: 'That is why there were demonstrations against it in 100 nations, mainly european..."
I meant to say 10 countries.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 54 of 306 (249144)
10-05-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CanadianSteve
10-05-2005 2:18 PM


Another example
I just came acorss this story which serves well as an example of how the west may destroy its sense of self in an effort to be fair and nice to immigrants, especially islamic ones.
CNN.com - Race fears sparkSt. George ban - Oct 4, 2005
Race fears spark St. George ban
Tuesday, October 4, 2005 Posted: 1249 GMT (2049 HKT)
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LONDON, England (CNN) -- British prison officers who wore a St. George's Cross tie-pin have been ticked off by the jails watchdog over concerns about the symbol's racist connotations.
The pins showing the English flag -- which has often raised hackles due to its connection with the Crusades of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries -- could be "misconstrued," Chief Inspector of Prisons Anne Owers said in a section on race in a report on a jail in the northern English city of Wakefield.
The banner of St. George, the red cross of a martyr on a white background, was adopted for the uniform of English soldiers during the military expeditions by European powers to recapture the Holy Land from Muslims, and later became the national flag of England.
A section on race relations in Owers' report said: "We were concerned to see a number of staff wearing a flag of St. George tie-pin.
"While we were told that these had been bought in support of a cancer charity there was clear scope for misinterpretation, and Prison Service Orders made clear that unauthorized badges and pins should not be worn."
As one of her formal recommendations Owers said: "Staff should not wear unauthorized badges or pins."
Chris Doyle, director of the Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding, said Tuesday the red cross was an insensitive reminder of the Crusades.
"A lot of Muslims and Arabs view the Crusades as a bloody episode in our history," he told CNN. "They see those campaigns as Christendom launching a brutal holy war against Islam.
"Muslim or Arab prisoners could take umbrage if staff wore a red cross badge. It's also got associations with the far-right. Prison officers should be seen to be neutral."
Doyle added that it was now time for England to find a new flag and a patron saint who is "not associated with our bloody past and one we can all identify with."
=========================
(BTW, the crusades were a Christian effort to win back Christian lands taken over by muslims through war in the centuries preceding.)

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Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 55 of 306 (249179)
10-05-2005 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CanadianSteve
10-05-2005 2:18 PM


Re: When multiculturalism means the majority accomodates, but not immigrants
Multiculturalism is an idealist notion. It works as long as minorities essentially assimilate, while practising only symbols and relatively unimportant cultural traits, like cooking traditional dishes, playing traditional music or trying to keep the languauge alive as a second language at home. But when minorities resist assimilation, and want to practise essentials, like law and government, differently than the nation which welcomed them, serious issues arise. Because it takes a substantial population to demand changes in fundamental matters, like law and government, the process is gradual, increasing with demographic power.
Multiculturalism is a reality, fascist uniculture is a utopian vision I am afraid has swept the globe and will lead to much suffering within this century. Even the UN has hopped on board as a tool for uniculture and their efforts at promoting cultural understanding are perfectly described above in the fascist statement: good foreign culture is cooking, music, and talking in funny ways at home while everyone agrees to one world standard for law.
What I find ironic is that this is hidden within a discussion of democracy. Democracy is not anathema to foreign cultures though some might choose not to be democratic. There is absolutely no sense, no logical reason that western democracies are the only possible democracies, and concepts of justice or law.
Intriguingly our founding fathers, the ones who brought back pagan democratic ideals to overthrow monotheistic feudalism, desired local law to be diverse across the singular nation, and also discussed our compatibility with islam (at that the time of history of course).
Thus, those who desire to form an islamic country within a western one, cannot yet make strident demands. Instead, they carefully choose their battles, hoping to win incrementally. The proposal for Sharia law arbitration in Ontario is an example.
This is fear mongering and religious intolerance. And the irony is that if true, argues for allowing arbitration rather than setting single standards by the majority.
I do not want to live in an Islamic state, but I'd rather live in one that gave me an alternative than a Xian state that gave me none until it was an islamic state that gave me none.
And interestingly the author ignores that there is a growing Xian fundamentalism that is working very hard for imposing a fully fundamentalist Xian country within our secular one. Well really it is growing within all western nations. They are seeking to change our laws and the constitution in order to make sure all laws constrain to Xian fundamentalist standards. They even wish iconography set everywhere to remind others that the basis of all law is from the 10 commandments (which of course is a lie).
In contrast Sharia law reflects another civilization (one born intending to supplant the judeo-Christian world, as it blatantly says in the koran), another set of sensibilities, and a form of law and governance that is not democratic.
There is no doubt that there is islamic fundamentalism, as there is xian fundamentalism. The latter is a much more imminent threat at this time to democracy. You can read directly within the text that they take as literal truth that it is to dominate everything in a feudal way, that is the end goal. What's more you can read this in the writings of the fundamentalists today.
The scare tactics are a nice ploy to end multiculturalism in order to get ordinarily rational and tolerant people on the side of the fundamentalists who want to break a rival religion as well as seal power within one authority which they hope to wield through their numbers.
They do not believe in a democracy with protection of minorities, but rather the kind of theodemoaristocracy witnessed in places like Saudi Arabia, where allegiance is to the majority culture which may use its laws to keep itself in power. The majority should not have to cede power, nor respect the minority.
That is why there were demonstrations against it in 100 nations, mainly european, where there was dread amongst democratically-minded European muslims about such a precedent being set. It is why the legislature of the canadian french province of Quebec passed unanimously a resolution presented by a muslim women member opposing sharia law.
Please cite these mass demonstrations against... what exactly? Canada's thought at arbitration? But let's say they are for real, then that is very sad and not part of any truth or health.
Mass demonstrations were in many places in all of history to stand in the way of greater freedom, driven by a fear of minorities.
The time is now to look back at history and at our current position and ask what does the future hold for us, and what is justice, democracy, freedom, and tolerance?
And perhaps look at what was under judgement and imagine it wasn't a scary "islam" figure asking for this ability. Could you conceive of a gov't coming to power where you would like the ability to arbitrate based on your own code within your own community as long as you and those involved agree? That's the precedent that would be set. Instead we have the precedent of a nation acting in knee jerk fashion, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, in order to disallow greater choice in gov't at the local (personal) level.
The problem is that when we recognize threats to our western values, laws, governance and culture posed by minorities that would rather see us become them rather than convert, our decency, generosity and fair play handcuff us. Thus, when Ontario finally decided against Sharia law, it felt it also, for the sake of fair play, had to get rid of jewish and catholic religious arbitration - even though they posed no threat and faced no opposition over the 15 years it has existed. Thus, when france decided against jihabs in schools, it also felt compelled to ban large crosses and stars of david, even though they posed no issues.
Strawman and blaming the victim. Those seeking alternative arbitration were not and could not seek to convert "us" to "them". They sought to live within a nation of laws, and yet retain their own codes as many others have done in the past. Yes it is interesting to see that we realize this has gone on (so far with no harm), yet decide to nuke all difference, rather than to see a new face in the crowd.
And again what goes without saying is that telling them to hide their symbols, and denying their right to alternative arbitration cannot stop this "hidden nation" occuring from within, if that is what is supposedly happening. Romans, Catholics, Protestants, and Nazis attempted the same thing each in their turn and it did not work.
and those who come to live apart, dreaming of taking us over from within.
This is true, this is not good. But what is the difference between that and people that were born here doing the exact same thing? Xian Fundies are separating themselves and dreaming of taking us over from within. Well more than dreaming, they are acting in many ways.
If one is afraid of a religious takeover, one does not need to look into the future. Though as I suggest it is a great way to take people's eyes off of what is happening, and grow knee jerk alliances that can be dashed when no longer needed.
We subscribe to multiculturalism because it seems just so bloody nice. But the implications are sometimes, usually in fact, not understood. This unpleasant reality needs to be confronted.
Multiculturalism is reality. E pluribus unum. The first democratic nation in the western world after nearly 2000 years of Xian oppression recognized and championed maximum diversity and tolerance... because all nations cannot help but contain many cultures. In one nation, time itself will break a people into many.
Solidity then is not in uniculturalism, but a way of living together. If there are cultures that refuse to live with others, tolerate the very existence of others, then they are an enemy. That is true. But that threat can come from within our own population as from without. And they will likely use alleged threats from outside in order to secure their own power, by weakening democracy and freedom behind a cloak of security.
The author has yet to suggest how on earth alternative arbitration could lead to forced arbitration, or an overthrow of our system. And he avoids any reply because he knows he cannot. What's more, the very interesting thing he also does not discuss is that in doing this thing, the canadian system was changed, to put more hands in the power of the majority and strip concepts of alternative adjudication which had been working without problems thus far.
It is true that an unpleasant reality must be confronted: intolerance and fascism using fear of different cultures to drive their agendas.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 2:18 PM CanadianSteve has replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 56 of 306 (249182)
10-05-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by CanadianSteve
10-05-2005 2:38 PM


Re: Another example
I just came acorss this story which serves well as an example of how the west may destroy its sense of self in an effort to be fair and nice to immigrants, especially islamic ones.
Heheheh... you think this happens only with immigrants?
After over 100 years of relatively solid secularity, a section of the US put God on our money and into our pledge. They changed OUR way of doing things for THEIR ends.
More recently, blacks have been upset with state flags and want them changed based on racist connotations which is a direct parallel to your citation. These blacks aren't immigrants, they are people who were born and raised in the US.
Obviously change frightens you. That is a shame as that is what the world is about. Now it can be for improving relations and freedom, or it can be against it. You seem to prefer (all things being equal) to oppress more in order for there to be less change for greater freedom and tolerance and accomodation.
What I find really interesting is that you are a Canadian. Shouldn't you be going back to wherever you came from? You are an immigrant my friend.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 2:38 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by CanadianSteve, posted 10-05-2005 5:56 PM Silent H has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 57 of 306 (249200)
10-05-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Silent H
10-05-2005 4:09 PM


Re: Another example
Yes, American born Blacks have reason to resent symbols associated with the slavery era. That is an altogether different thing that a non Westerner wanting to see the very flag of a nation to which they willingly came altered. Similarly, if the American people altered their money by vote of their legal representatives, and subject to change through an expression of democratic will, that is altogether different than, let's say, American immigrants to Saudi Arabia demanding that nation change its flag because it has an Islamic symbol of some kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 4:09 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 58 of 306 (249201)
10-05-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Silent H
10-05-2005 4:00 PM


Re:
Message 6

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 59 of 306 (249208)
10-05-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Silent H
10-05-2005 4:00 PM


Re: When multiculturalism means the majority accomodates, but not immigrants
I'm not into long posts and long replies, so i'll respond once and, hopefully, succinctly.
Not all nations are the same. There is a distinct difference between a western nation and an islamic one. These distinct difference is based on substantive characteristics. these on an altogether different order than differences between individuals and differneces between, let's say, an italian american and a british American. Multiculturalism works as long as the minimal differneces are respected. It fails when substantive ones are accomodated.
Democracy is democracy is democracy: government by consent of the people as expresswed trhough elections. There is no such thing as western style democracy and non western style democracy. Asian democracies are different than, let's say the US, but the essentials of their democracy are not, anymore than are the essentials of british democracy different than American democracy.
You are painfully naive about the itent of Islamists within western society. It is that naivete, born of an unwillingness to allow western ideals be challenged, that is the greatest threat we face. For if we refuse to recognize a threat, we can ahrdly defend ourselves against it.
CAIR is the largest and most influential Muslim organization in the US. Here are quotes from its founder and a key person.
"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education." - Ibrahim Hooper"
"Omar M. Ahmad founder of CAIR said:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" he said. "The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America , and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
Your comments on Christian fy=undamentalism are absurd. yes, a few truly extreme fanatics would impose a fundamentalist state id they could. But the mainstream Christian fundamentalist movement is thoroughly democratic. To try the equivalence argument between them and the islamists betrays teh naivete based on false idealism that i stated above.
And so on. there's really no point going on. My views are clear and so are yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 4:00 PM Silent H has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6503 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 60 of 306 (249209)
10-05-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Silent H
10-05-2005 4:00 PM


edited version
I type and edit carelessly, but usually ignore it. Since, though, my post may have been almost unintelligible, i'll do it again with edits.
I'm not into long posts and long replies, so i'll respond once and, hopefully, succinctly.
Not all nations are the same. There are distinct differences between a western nation and an islamic one. These distinct differences are based on substantive characteristics on an altogether different order than differences between individuals and groups within a western democracy, say, an italian american and a british American. Multiculturalism works as long as the minimal differences are respected. It fails when substantive ones are accomodated.
Democracy is democracy is democracy: government by consent of the people as expresswed through elections. There is no such thing as western style democracy and non western style democracy. Asian democracies are different than, let's say, US democracy in details, but the essentials of their democracies are not, anymore than are the essentials of british democracy different than those of American democracy.
You are painfully naive about the intent of Islamists within western society. It is that naivete, born of an unwillingness to allow western ideals be challenged, that is the greatest threat we face. For if we refuse to recognize a threat, we can hardly defend ourselves against it. That you don't think it's any big deal that some british Muslims are demanding the flag be changed, and that some british are willing to consider that, is a scary and telling example of my point.
CAIR is the largest and most influential Muslim organization in the US. It skey people have often been invited to white House...although those invitiations have become much harder to get recently. Here are quotes from its founder and a key person.
"I wouldn't want to create the impression that I wouldn't like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future...But I'm not going to do anything violent to promote that. I'm going to do it through education." - Ibrahim Hooper"
"Omar M. Ahmad founder of CAIR said:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" he said. "The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
Your comments on Christian fundamentalism are absurd and borderline paranoid. Yes, a few truly extreme fanatics would impose a fundamentalist state if they could. But the mainstream Christian fundamentalist movement is thoroughly democratic. To try the equivalence argument between them and the islamists betrays the naivete based on false idealism that i stated above.
And so on. There's really no point going on. My views are clear and so are yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Silent H, posted 10-05-2005 4:00 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 10-05-2005 6:29 PM CanadianSteve has replied

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