If the main purpose of marriage is to have kids and that's why gays shouldn't be allowed to get married,
I didn't exactly say that, your twisting my words a bit.
I said it is a representative of how things are.
You can't change it no matter how much you twist my words, it takes a sperm and an agg to make a child.
Think about it, rat: other than the sexuality of the parties to the marriage, there is no difference in that surgically-altered straight couple and a gay couple.
Of course I thought about it.
I do think there is a difference between a couple that chooses not to have children, and one that does. So does the governemnt.
There are 3 types of couples.
Ones who can't have children
Ones who can and do
Ones who choose not too, but can
I guess there is a fourth, ones who can't have babies, and don't want any, but that probably is rare.
So, to tell you the truth, just how many couples out there get themselves altered right off the bat, and say we are never having kids?
That is not too common. Plus, I also don't really agree with it, in the sense of calling it a marraige. I think it is a bit on the selfish side to take control of your own body, cut your organs and say no more.
But, that makes me somewhat of a hypocrite, since I had a vasectomy. But I did father 3 children, and have two step children. I just don't think I could raise anymore, or afford too, so I cut them. When I did it, I think I really didn't understand what I was doing to myself, and at the time, I felt almost like it was a selfish act. I have some regret to it now, but we should have no regrets in life, only learning experiences.
I don't think it's fair to imply that he would have been happier with his natural parents.
I don't think so either, that is why I did not imply that.
In my life, I've only known two gay couples and one gay individual who've reared kids. Each case involved one kid, and all are grown now. The gay individual's kid grew up to be a drug dealer (his father was one also) for several years until he got serious about his education and quit dealing. One of the couples had a girl who is now studying music at the Julliard School. The other couple had a son who is now an Ole Miss med student.
So that's three children of gays I've known, 100% of whom have gone to college and 66% of whom would have to be characterized as high achievers. Those percentages certainly wouldn't hold for the kids of straights I've known; they wouldn't even hold for the young adults in my own family.
Which means nothing, and doesn't change the fact that it takes a sperm and an egg to make a child.
I realize this is all anecdotal but I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm simply trying to show that gays can be just as effective as straights at parenting. Of course they can't produce the kids themselves, but until straight people quit making babies that they don't want I say thank God someone is out there who will take care of those kids.
If your not trying to prove anything, then do not mention these scenerios anymore. It's a waste of time, and means nothing. It only shows how screwd up the world is, from all angles.
It also proves that 2 wrongs do not make a right.
there is simply no way you can say that straights are good enough for marriage but gays aren't without causing some degree of offense.
Well that sucks, and I realize that. That is why I am searching my soul to see if I am wrong for felling this way. I don't really care what the church might think, I only care what I think, and what Jesus thinks.
It also may mean that people are wrong for taking offense to the fact that I feel this way. I can feel how I choose. I do not take offense when people don't like Christians, or nascar racing fans. That is their problem not mine. I surely have felt this way since being attacked in this forum.
From the perspective of the legal system, marriage is nothing more than a contract between two consenting parties. There is nothing in that contract about reproduction.
Even from a legal stand point, I do not think I should be letting legal rules govern my morals, or what I believe to be right, wrong, marriage, no marriage.
There are many different kinds of people that make up the legal systems, and our rules stem from many different beliefs. It is what we decide on as a nation, and doesn't make them wrong or right. WE just have to live with it.
Besides, what was the history of making that contract, we need to know that, and how it evolved, and what we were trying to protect before we can even consider that.
People who have committed murder - even mass murder - are allowed to get married (Scott Peterson got married a few months ago as I hear). People who've been convicted of child rape are allowed to get married. People who've been convicted of any crime you can think of are allowed to get married. All of these people are good enough for marriage so long as they're straight, but law-abiding gays are just shit out of luck cuz they're not good enough for marriage. I don't think there is any argument that can be made to show that this situation is fair.
What situation? That is irrelavent. Gay people are not breaking the law, and you just compared all gay people to murders, child molesters, and rapists. Something I can got my ass reamed out for a while back on these forums.
So now we have come full circle on that topic.
Ah, but it does too. It says that my sin is so terrible that I'm not good enough for marriage, but none of the other sins are so bad as to render a straight person not good enough for marriage.
That is some what of a misnomer.
You are blurring many different thoughts here, which I don't think is fair, and it is not straight conversation.
People who commit those sins, are sinning, and people who are gay are sinning, we are all sinners, and that has nothing to do with who gets to marry or not, or more exactly, what is considered a marraige.
What your saying in other words is that people murder, so two guys who love each other can be considered a marraige.
Remember, I am not saying because people are gay, they should be punished and not be allowed to marry. I am saying that it just isn't a marriage at all. To me, it's just like a guy isn't a girl.
He could go get a sex change, but no matter what he still isn't a female. It's who we are, it's nature, it's something that no humanistic thought or technology can change.
It's how we evolved, it's how we were designed.
I have mixed feelings about the legalization of drugs, but clearly removing speed limits puts innocent people at risk. How exactly would allowing gay marriage be putting any innocent person at risk?
Missed point.
If I consent to speeding, then it is ok. Doesn't matter how bad I hurt myself once I crash.
If we all consent to speeding, then it is ok, no matter who gets hurt.
I am not adding statistics into this thought, just the idea of consent.
Neither does one choose to be gay. I certainly didn't choose it, and the insinuation that I did is insulting, whether you mean it that way or not.
This to me is the heart of the matter.
If God created us or not, if we are born gay, then I guess I am partially wrong. There still is a difference between people want to have kids of their own, and everybody else.
I believe that you didn't choose it, but the reason I believe that you didn't choose it, and the reason you think you didn't choose it are different.
Can you please explain to me, why you are gay?
but I can't see how my getting married to the person I love is imposing anything on anyone
Because you are asking me to accept it as a marriage, when I do not consider it one. You asking me to tell everyone it is ok to be gay and marry, when I feel it is not. The reasons I feel it is not, are the same reasons that I feel many things are not right, including things that I do myself. I would never sit here and tell you that the things I do wrong are ok, so I won't sit here and pretend to think that gay marriage is ok.
But this doesn't give me any right to stop you from what your doing.
You can do what you want, and I can tell you if I think it is right or wrong. Asking me to make it a legal contract, and be the same as a straight marriage just doesn't make sense to me.
I didn't say he was bi,
But he got married?
I did it several times when I was young cuz I didn't want people to know I was gay.
Uh?
I would never perform with a guy to prove that I do not have a problem with gays. I don't get it.
I don't like what your telling me. You probably might have hurt those girls feelings, just like your freind who married. Then blame it on society.
've put a lot of trust in your honesty, but when you equate societal disapproval of NASCAR to societal disapproval of gays you're insulting me again.
No, I wasn't equating it, I was relating to it.
It wasn't nascar and being gay that I was relating, it was societys disapproval of anything, and the feelings that arise from it.
Of course they are not the same thing, or on the same level. However, I am sure I experienced some of the feelings you have, on a lesser level.
Unfortunately, I have no choice but to care what society thinks.
I know, and I do feel for that.
It's not a small issue, but I cannot fathom any threat to the human race resulting from gay marraige. Can you 'splain that one for me?
I never said it was a threat.
I still think you're a good guy, rat, and that you're trying to be fair. But you need to give this a little more thought. Maybe take a day or two to get back to me; don't feel that it's necessary for you to respond at the earliest possible moment.
Believe me, I am putting a lot of thought into it. I don't think I am going to change all that easily, which sucks, because if I am wrong, then I am living my life wrong.
I sometimes argue with people whoa re against gay marraige, and take your side, and use the arguments you put forth, to see what and why people fell this way.
I learn a lot about a person by doing this, and learn why we feel the way we do. Many people feel the same way I do, and do not make it a religious issue.
I was listening to a radio program yesterday, and a lesbian called in, and they were trying to help her find something interesting to do with her partner.
Jokingly, one of the guys said, why don't you go home and try to make a baby? That will keep you busy for a while.
I found it very funny, the joke, not making fun of them or anything, and it had some truth in it.
I hope you see how some people are treating me in this thread. The anger always pops up. I am glad that we are talking about it.
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