Howard Dean was right!

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Many high ranking Dems are already trying to shut him up. The question is, will he listen to them?

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I hope not.

That's what I meant, though. (What did you think I meant when I said "problem"?) I don't see how any of these quotes are going to convince Americans to vote Republican.That's the assertion that we're asking you to support. What did you think we were asking? Well, he'd be the expert on that, now wouldn't he?

Which is what Shcraf disproved in her post, and why she needed to use the examples of Bush to do it. Of course Dean's comments aren't "fodder"; the Republicans said stuff that was ten times as outrageous and they still won. QED.Like I said why did you bring up Republicans if you didn't want to talk about them? And when are you going to support your assertions?

Knee jerk? Maybe. Nonsensical? Hardly. Emphatic? Yes.What's funny is that guys like you pull out those little bits of hyperbolic commentary in order to deride Dean as somehow imbalanced. Yet Bush and Co use the same type of knee jerk and hyperbolic commentary. What's worse is Bush ends up being nonsensical.If you look at the nonhyperbolic statements by Dean and compare them to the nonhyperbolic statements of Bush, you would discover the Dean has a brain on his shoulders and comparatively more brains that Bush.His administration has been frought with errors, which he attributes to others but nonetheless are of his administration and on his watch, that Dean was right about. I mean Bush's fingerpointing at his own staff's errors inherently makes Dean right on many things.I'm sure laughing at Dean allows you to have the giddy escapist feeling that your own selected leader is somehow credible. If that is what Reps are going to run on in '08 then all the more power to 'em.I mean if the American public buys that then they deserve whatever other lamebrain the Reps are willing to run up the flag pole.Mean time I just get to keep laughing as your guy fumbles over the next important issue, and all you guys scramble to make excuses for how brilliantly executed his acrobatic skills are.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Americans don't need to be convinced to vote Republican. They did that effectively in the last election which is why Republicans are in power. The Republicans only need to hold on to the base they have established.It's the Democrats who need to sheer off some of those Republican voters if they expect to have a chance in '08.Dean's idiotic ranting won't do that.

Then if that is true, surely Dean has enough sense to know what he is doing, that he thinks this approach is going to pay dividends down the road somehow.Dean should be smarter than to allow his emotions supercede rational thought. OTOH, Maybe this is his "intelligent" strategy to put the Democrats back in power? If he believes that and is so much smarter than Bush, then he should keep up the rhetoric, right?

I hope not. Did you see George Galloway's testimony before the Senate?He was incredibly... opinionated... and totally ripped the Reps and Bush new assholes. It was amazing to watch our gov't officials get so outclassed by a British mp.He said many things people critical of the Bush administration (left or right) have wanted to see a representative have the courage to say. Too bad it was a british rep instead of a US one.As much as I am for less hyperbolic positions and a more centrist gov't, I'd love to see fire like that in some candidate for the next election, specifically with regard to the false statements and ineptitude this administration has shown.Dean would definitely be on par with that.And again, if the Reps win on the basis of "heated commentary" well then they get what they deserve.What I find real ironic about all of this is that if your criticims are right then you must have hated the founding fathers. Dare I post a list of their statements? What a bunch of lamebrains they were huh? Oh wait, that's right, they knew how to speak and write.Get it? That's the real difference. Excitement about one's position is not necessarily something negative. It was the ability to have a position which is right (meaning you don't have to make excuses about it afterward) and the ability to communicate it properly (so you don't sound like a moron) which used to make good leaders... like our founding fathers for instance. For my part, those still are good criteria. How about you?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

What criticisms? Have I criticized anyone in this thread? Even if I had, why does that mean I hate the founding fathers huh?

First of all... This is not true and I believe I have already discussed this with you. All it would take is divisions to form within the Reps to secure more victories for the Dems.This occured almost 10 years ago after the last "ultimate" rep victory. The ultra right wing and the moderates went to war and undermined Rep power.They were able to recreate the "big tent" again in 04, but the factions were already apparent at the convention and their splintering has just begun. Maybe they can hold it together? Who knows.But Dems, with a strong 49% base, don't have to do anything and still get ahead.Although, let me state that I am not a Dem and what I am really hoping for is that both parties offer up interesting candidates in '08, neither pandering to the neocons or religious bigots.Now on to your reply to me... Oh, he may not be a great political strategist like Rove. I am in agreement with the following... Yet what practical difference does that make in an election? In 04 Reps made it appear that rational thought was a hindrance. Instead it should all be about "gut instincts". Or are the Reps going to flipflop again?What I was pointing out, and you dodged, is that Dean was smarter than Bush and Co and his nonhyperbolic commentary was more correct than those of of Bush and Co.Perhaps you can grace me with any major policies that Bush has implemented that have succeeded and not required some sort of lame ass excuse. And what's worse is he doesn't even have the balls to apologize.I remember watching an interview of Dean with Wolf Blitzer, when there was suddenly an "alert" which the gov't was going to have to announce. Dean ripped into it, mockingly saying what Ridge would say, and told Blitzer it wouldn't be anything at all. Blitzer said that was a hard thing to say about the gov't and shouldn't Dean give them the benefit of the doubt. Dean said watch it and he'll be right.Sure enough, he was.Personally I like guys that are right when they say something.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Yes you criticized Dean. You just got done posting a list of his quotes in order to show that he is an "idiot" of some kind.Are you now saying that you were not indicating that he says idiotic things? If you believe that what he said makes him idiotic, or that he is saying idiotic things, then you are essentially criticizing the founding fathers. That's what I meant with the question of if I dare post a list of their statements.They made equally hyperbolic statements. So either you laugh at them too, or you think Dean is not idiotic as they were not idiotic.I then went on to point out that it is not necessarily the enthusiasm one places in one's position that determines if one is idiotic or not. It is whether one used reason to assemble one's position properly in the first place as well as if one can communicate what one means to say.The founding fathers were like Dean in being very excited and vitriolic in their commentary, as well as being correct in their assessments and ability to speak coherently. While Bush often uses hyperbolic commentary (axis of evil was a perfect example) he fails to make correct assessments or speak coherently.Now do you get it?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

But it is true. Democrats can win in ’08 if they sheer off enough votes from the Republican base by creating divisions in the ranks. We agree. You equate Dean to the founding fathers. I do not. Post them. I dare you Let’s see what you are laughing at. Post themThis message has been edited by Monk, Sat, 06-11-2005 04:38 PM

How are Dean's comments not true?Why are you so afraid of talking about the specific quotes?

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Americans don't need to be convinced to vote Republican.

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Americans don't need to be convinced that Astrology is real and that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9/11, either, but they believe those things, don't they?

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They did that effectively in the last election which is why Republicans are in power. The Republicans only need to hold on to the base they have established.

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It's the Democrats who need to sheer off some of those Republican voters if they expect to have a chance in '08.

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I strongly disagree.What the Democrats need to do is to attract the moderate majority in America and to get more people voting in general.One big reason the Republicans won last election (barely) is because fewer people voted.Why do you think Republicans work so hard to keep people from registering to vote? Why do they oppose Moror Votor measures, and why do they work so hard to make voting in poor urban areas so difficult?That's because when poor people and minorities have high turnout at the polls, they tend to lose elections.

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Dean's idiotic ranting won't do that.

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Dean might rant, but he's hardly an idiot.Do you need me to post that list of Bushisms again to instruct you on what an actual idiot sounds like?To be fair, I don't think Bush is really an idiot.I think he's got brain damage from two decades of abusing alcohol.

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Democrats can win in ’08 if they sheer off enough votes from the Republican base by creating divisions in the ranks.

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Democrats aren't the one's responsible for splintering the Republican party.The NeoCons left behind traditional conservative values like smaller government, fiscal responsibility, strong individual state governments, and the notion that government should stay out of people's personal lives.The traditional conservatives within the Republican party made a unholy bargain with these NeoCons to say nothing, and even to help the NeoCons get into power, and now they are regretting the deal they made.Neocons aren't real Republicans, Monk, that's what you seem to not really understand. You will defend them to the death while they rape this country's ideals.They are nothing but Authoritarian zealots who only love power.

Well, apparently, rising above the muck and trying to hold to a higher standard of dialogue doesn't do that.So, again, could you support your assertion? How will Dean's comments, since he's not running for any office in 08 (or even 06), prevent a Democratic victory?Or is this one of those crucial things that you're just going to tapdance around? Why is it that we can never get you to take this stuff seriously?