Christianity For Morons

Agreed. However, not a single person in this world can prove that God exists either. Because of the lack of evidence of God's existence, we would have to conclude for now that It doesn't exist.If we say that since we can't prove that God doesn't exist, then we would have to recognize that Santa Clause, along with every other mythological being, exists. We could even conclude that all the various Gods and Goddesses in ancient mythologies exist because noone can prove that they don't exist.

I am stating my claim on every scripture in the entire bible,in both the old and the new testaments,and by my own personal experience.
I believe the whole entire bible is all truth.I don't believe in just a few verses,I believe all of it.
I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior.I believe that Paul wrote the truth as did all those instructed by God.
I do state what I believe and who I believe.

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Desdamona*

I am very glad this has been settled.
Thank you for letting me know that.
There are many who ask so many questions in just one message,there is just no way to answer them all.
I don't feel that I am one of those who do that.
I am not telling anyone that they cannot believe what they want to
believe.
I believe that I am calm with everyone here.It may not seem that way to you,or the others who are strongly opposed to what I post,but I'm not tense or uptight at all.

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Desdamona*

What does this have to do with what I posted?I stated nothing concerning what you "believe", only asked for support for claims that you have made concerning another poster's contradictions.I did not claim that you didn't state what you believe, I asked for support for a claim that you made against another poster.You are more than welcome to believe in anything you wish and no one here will worry about it. When you make existential or evidentiary claims then you will be called on to support them.PLEASE read what others are actually posting to you. Many of your posts do not seem to reflect any thing that your opponent has said in the posts you reply to. What does this mean? What claim are you stating on scripture?

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

While they may not be able to prove God exists to other people,they can experience proof in their own lives.
To you,God may not exist.At this time you may feel very strongly that
he doesn't.
For those of us who feel we know for a fact that God does exist,it is
very natural for us to want others to know this.
Just like if you could prove that he does not exist,I'm sure you'd want to tell people or at least a few people.
I know that you feel that you would need proof in order to believe God exists. I know what you are trying to say.We live in a world where there are so many beliefs,and it's so incredibly hard to know what the truth is.
In my case,I have the proof I need.
I also know that there are those who don't have proof in their lives that God exists.I know there are those who believe they do know for a fact that God does not exist.
Every one must make up his or her own mind about what they are going to believe.
With so many different beliefs out there,it must be hard to find the truth.There can be so many confusing ideas.There is a new belief always being invented it seems.

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Desdamona*

My claim is that I believe that God does live,and that he is the reason I do not agree with those who say he does not exist,or that they feel that it's not likely that there is a God.
If I disagree with someone,and they don't like what I tell them,I am
not holding a grudge against them.
I answer as many of their questions as I can. If I say that I believe
what the bible says,yet they say the bible has too many contradictions,so they throw out the bible as support,is that a fair way to debate? I don't feel that it's fair at all.I don't believe the
bible contradicts it's self.All alleged contradictions have good answers,and there are many books and web sites,ect...that can help those who believe other wise.
Why are there so few christians here?
If christians are treated badly there won't be any left here to debate with.

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Desdamona*

desdamona says:

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There are many who ask so many questions in just one message,there is just no way to answer them all.

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I know the feeling. However, you must at least attempt to answer any legitimate objections posted by fellow board members. Only then can you be a member of evc in good standing. It is simply good manners extended to board policy.

quote:

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I am not telling anyone that they cannot believe what they want to believe.

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That's good to know. I think we can continue this discussion in a spirit of goodwill toward one another. Let's please try.Earlier, in this message, you said:

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You cannot call anything evil since you have no standard to measure evil by.

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I think this is the second essential point to be settled.Many of us believe that it is possible to be a moral and just person without believing everything the bible says. In fact, we believe it is possible to be a just and moral person without any belief in the bible whatsoever.Why do you feel that a person must believe in everything the bible says in order to be a just and moral person?

Yup, here is an outline of the moral theories out there. Most of these, you don't need a God or Gods for good and morality to exist.Non-normative: Virtue Ethics and Feminist EthicsNon-consequencialist: Social Contract and DeontologyUtilitarian: Act and RuleEgoism: Psychological and EthicalAuthoritarian: Theological, Social, and Subjective

The reason behind why I believe that a person must believe in the bible to have good morals is because I feel that God gave us morals to live by.I don't believe people learn right and wrong by themselves.I believe that there must be strong examples that teach us
what is acceptable and what is not.
Children learn by teaching and their role models.
A child learns his or her language from their parents,and others around them with the same language.
People needed examples of right and wrong in order to know right and wrong.
If we are born knowing right and wrong,this to me would also support
God too.
I know we live in a world with so many different ways to believe what
truth is.
We can either accept those we think are correct,or reject them all.
People want to know what is true about God,life and human nature,ect... but no one knows what is best to believe.Those who do or think they do are always being challenged.
It's like there are no absolutes to so many people today.
There has to be absolutes to me.I believe that truth does exist,but
I also believe that many people are over- whelmed with so many different opinions and views that it creates alot of confusion.
Many people just want to give up on believing there is a God,and with so much bad in the world,it's easy to see why they would feel this way.Life would be so cruel in my view,if God didn't exist,but to some one else,it's the opposite of this.
I don't know what I would believe today if it were not for certain
things that happened in my life.
In my mind,I have facts that God is alive.
To another person,they may believe that they have facts that he is not.
Asking someone to believe what I tell them is asking a whole lot,but the same is true of all of us when we want someone to believe our views.
I know I cannot make others believe me,and debating seems so futile.
There will always be new idea's that will come.Some ideas are very old,some are somewhere in between,some are fairly new,and some are new.
It doesn't seem likely to me that man can figure out right and wrong on his/her own.
Man made ideas seem to be very flawed,and man cannot save man,but again,these are the ideas that I believe the bible teaches us,but I cannot make anyone believe them.
with out enough proof we are all in the same boat it appears.
We all must use an act of faith on what we choose to believe based on what we think is the truth.
To me,God must exist.To others,he does not,and to others he does exist along with everything else,and still to others religion and God are the truth.
To me,God,and the holy bible is the truth,but there are so many views
available each person has to choose what they feel is best for them.
There are christian debates that seem impossible to end also,and I grew tired of them too.
People are inteligent beings.True some are more inteligent than others,yet everyone seems to believe differently to a certain degree.
I believe the way I do because my experiences line up with the bible,and what the bible teaches.
I understand that others do not believe that to be true,and I cannot prove it to anyone.

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Desdamona*

Hint on formatting. It is a good idea to put a blank line between successive paragraphs, but to write each paragraph with no line breaks at all. The box in which we enter text will wrap text around automatically, and the displayed result is also easier to read. A space after punctuation is good also. Just a suggestion...I've taken the liberty of reformatting quoted text; but the text itself is unchanged. But do you have any reason for those beliefs? It seems to me that there are many people with good morals who do not believe in the bible; people of other religions, and people of no religion at all. This would seem to be a direct contradiction with your first sentence. How do you reconcile your beliefs with the existence of good people who don't believe the bible?Secondly, your belief above appears to imply not only that God gave us morals to live by, but that the only way in which he gave those morals was through the bible. I don't actually think that is truly a biblical perspective. The bible appears to me to support the view that we all have the capacity to know right from wrong; this is part of the point of the story of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 3.The bible is useful for instruction and reproof and witness; but it is not a necessary prerequisite for good morals.I'm not a Christian, by the way; but I remain a fan of the bible. Not as divine literature, but as a collection of writings of great power and significance; not infallible, grounded in its local culture, but worthy of serious consideration for us also.Cheers — Sylas (Edited to fix a typo. God "gave us morals", not "gave up morals". Erk!)[This message has been edited by Sylas, 04-19-2004]

Desdamona,I didn't mean to be rude when I mentioned your 'warped mind'. I was simply stating what I think is a fact, just like you think, for instance, that it's a fact that people who do not subscribe to your particular brand of religion have no moral code. If you have no problem dismissing other people's morality so off-handedly, you should be prepared to receive reciprocal treatment.On to DNA now, with your permission.You said: Well, neither do I. And I think it is safe to say that nobody in their right mind would think so, because logically it is impossible to prove a negative. But please bear in mind that the impossibility of proving that God doesn't exist is not the same as proof that he does exist. (FYI, '[sic]' indicates that I'm quoting you exactly as you wrote it, so that I won't have to take the blame for any grammatical and/or spelling errors I didn't make. It has nothing to do with whether or not I find your ideas 'sick'. Just in case you'd misunderstand...)Saying you believe this is not enough. I'd like to see some reasoning as to why DNA proves God's existence. Give me facts and testable hypotheses. Once more, saying something is not the same as demonstrating it. I want details.

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"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." Desdamona, home school teacher, licensed CNA, flying colours passer, easily educated in school.

First of all, and like Sylas said, please use a blank line (press enter twice) to seperate your paragraphs. It is difficult to read sentences and paragraphs that are clumped together. The problem with using the bible in a legitimate debate most of the time is that not everyone share your belief that the bible is the book. In order for a debate to be good and valid, both sides must use facts and interpretations based on these facts. Simply saying "I believe that blah blah blah..." won't cut it most of the time.By allowing people to start using the bible in a debate, you have to allow everyone else to start using his holy texts as well. By allowing christians to use their faith, you have to allow everyone else to start using his faith as well. Do you see the problem with this? A legitimate debate can't function if we wander off of facts, or people to use premises that not everyone agree on, and biblical texts are not considered facts or things people agree to be valid premises.Since human freedom is priceless, you can have as much faith as you want in the bible. However, you can't start using the bible in moral debates. You want to present your view, try to do it without using the bible and start using facts, like the rest of us.

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The Laminator

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Desdemona, How many 6,000 year old Christians do you know? 2,000 year old ones? None. What a silly thing to say! !! Please, oh please, oh please enlighten me as to how stratigraphy matching cladistics is evidence for god & not evolution?This will be good.Furthermore, I never said evolution disproved anything. That's your assumption, not mine. It does scupper a lieral interpretation of Genesis, however. How? What scientific evidence of God do you have? Just to help you, it has to be OBSERVABLE & REPEATABLE. You don't have any, do you? However, science provides as unequivocal evidence as it is possible to get that evolution occurred. So I guess you don't like science that much after all. Er, yes? And I have shown you to be a hypocrite three times over in my last post for making this sort of comment. Please answer those charges, get logical & consistent, & maybe then you'll also get taken a bit more seriously. Not only are you a hypocrite but a liar too! You have not witnessed anything in the bible unless you are at least 2,000 years old. To witness creation you have to be 6,000 years old & be created before Adam.Heresy!If I held myself to your standard, des, I could pick up Futuyma's 3rd edition of Evolutionary Biology & "witness" evolution. But this sort of nonsense only occurs in fundamentalist cloud cuckoo-land. It boggles the mind that you think you have "witnessed" the crucifixion, resurrection, & life of Christ by reading a book.Mark

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"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

Strong atheism, by its very nature, is an explicit denial of the existence of all gods, including the Christian one. When asked, an atheist will state: there is no God. Do you or do you not hate atheists?However, you are again missing the point of my posts to you. You have deliberately quoted lies - and refused to retract them when shown they WERE lies. You have one choice now: either admit that the Darwin quotes were fabrications which you culled from some source other than the original works of the quoted author and retract the claim, OR provide additional evidence that they are valid as written. You must address all three mistatements. Otherwise, you are willingly and willfully promulgating outright lies: making you a "liar for Christ" - the worst kind of fundamentalist.

desdamona writes:

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I don't believe people learn right and wrong by themselves. I believe that there must be strong examples that teach us what is acceptable and what is not.

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But people do learn right from wrong by themselves. If they didn't, we'd have no right to put murderers and rapists in prisons. We do so on the assumption that they knew what they did was wrong regardless of whether they are Christian or not. If they are not Christian and thus do not know right from wrong, as you maintain, then it would be cruel to put them in prison. They should be put in mental hospitals instead.I submit to you that the Golden Rule is quite sufficient to form the basis of a sound moral code. Jesus said many things that support the Golden Rule and, thus, you would be justified in saying that Jesus provided good advice in helping us to see right from wrong.As usually stated, the Golden Rule is: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If people follow this advise in their hearts and in their actions, it will be reflected in their morals. Again, Jesus is an excellent role model for this sort of morality, but he isn't the only role model.This is all I'm saying. I'm not saying that anyone who holds Jesus dear should reject him in order to be a moral person. I'm only saying that those of us who do not follow Jesus are still capable of observing a good moral code.Can you agree with me this far? If not, why not?