PHILOSOPHY IS KING

Why can't those who claim they do not believe in God just admit that they love to sin all they can,and just get it over with,instead of coming up with all these wack and cracker idea's about creation?
can you say,I LOVE SIN?
Any body knows that blue and brown,and green eyes are selective,they did not evolve!!! and where are these monkey's who started evolving and when can we all see it in the process?
Every one has a totally different DNA,and that is proven fact,and it has helped police time and time again!!!
Everyone has a one of a kind set of finger prints too,random act? I think not!!!
When I was a big time sinner,I thought sin was fun too,but I didn't know what I was really missing back then until I got saved,and now I can honestly say I have true joy and happiness!!! REAL JOY THAT LASTS!!!!
You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to know that some things are way too brilliant to be accidental,amen.
I cannot envy the worldly or the secular at all,but I do feel some compassion for them,and I pray they will find the truth in Christ Jesus alone,because he really is the only way,but if they don't,I'm happy I tried to help them know that life is more than what they think!
WAY MORE!!!
I use to drink and cuss with the best of them,until I realized there was nothing best being around any of them,it was all so dirty!
Being around loose morals and loose behavior causes mental trauma and alot of other problems to the body also.
I don't care if people say I'm a bible thumper,or call me a Jesus Freak,thats me.
Safe sex is something that only true love can give,and true love waits!!!
No one ever respects the loose,and easy to get!!!
There is no happiness for the worldly,they cannot understand the word of God,because they are to lost in lust of the flesh and all sorts of carnal desires.
They may not believe in God,but God doesn't believe in atheists!!!
I cannot believe that the face of an owl,or the face of an Eagle,or the face of a Raccoon were all accidental. I have seen beautiful flowers that tell me that there is no way they could have been random acts of creation.
There is no way,just no way,amen.
One day every knee will bow to God,EVERY KNEE!!!

---

Desdamona*

Hi desdamona, welcome to EvC.If you go to this page you will notice that we have several forums on this board, each revolving around a particular type of issue. We also try very hard to keep our discussions on topic.If you want to discuss your views on religion, maybe one of the threads in Faith and Belief or The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy might be more appropriate forums. Feel free to search for a thread that is discussing the issues you want to discuss or to start a new thread with an appropriately discriptive title.In the mean time please make sure you have read and understand our Forum Guidelines. Again, Welcome to EvC.

---

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

B2P :Thank you for sharing this personal stuff. I only meant links from this forum.A 3.0 GPA is good !Now for a little friendly advice. IF you want to be a respected and listened to preacher YOU MUST go on to college and earn educational credentials.I believe, nay, I know that God wants His spokespersons to be the brightest. When you get those credentials you get respect and bring honor to a calling that is populated with pathetic morons.Having God call you to preach His word is the highest calling in this life. President of the United States is a step down.I hope you burn with desire to fulfill the calling of God and leave your mark on this world.Willowtree

I understand now.Thanks for being so kind to me.
I'm sorry I didn't seem much like a christian earlier.
I had a christian message board where there was so much debate,I must have been too tired to realize how I was being affected by it. I didn't know I could get so rude.I'll be careful not to behave that way again.
May God bless you always,in Jesus,amen.

---

Desdamona*

Thanks, to Willowtree and to Rocket for the surprising response. I put all that excess information with the intention to emphasize that I was far from a pastor with credentials but could still make points about things nonetheless.I was expecting some belittling remarks in return, that's why the last few posts sounded so sarcastic. However, instead of what I expected I recieve a post and an email telling me what a calling I've chosen to answer. Many thanks, and you've both got my respect...But I'm still not any less eager to argue with you guys

---

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I claimed that I could go to Genesis and demonstrate that God operates via the appearance of chance, fluke, accident.This claim was made in the context of the three words being descriptions of evidence against the belief that a Creator was involved. For some reason, some evolutionists, believe that chance, fluke, and accident rule out the God of Genesis. Erase the chalkboard of your mind and consider the following :Genesis Chapter 37 begins the account of the life of Joseph. I am going to speed through the story, and then at the end, pull the trigger and demonstrate the claim.Jacob loved Joseph more than the rest of his children. This favor ignited the envy and contempt of his brothers. To make matters worse Joseph dreamed dreams that enraged his brothers. He dreamed that his entire family would one day be made to bow down to him. That despite his youth he would somehow become greater than all of them.Joseph is the object of intense sibling hatred: he obeys his Father and goes out into the field to check on the herds and when his brothers see him coming their hatred boils over and they decide to kill him. But Reuben talks them out of it and they shove Joseph into a pit while mocking "lets see what becomes of his dreams". (37:20)But as they tarried in the field a caravan of Ishmaelites happened by: Joseph is sold by his brothers into slavery. The children of Jacob then concoct a cruel story of Joseph being killed by a wild animal which leaves their Father in a state of shock.Nice functional family we have here. So far this story could be the plot of any number of television dramas/movies.The Ishmaelites sell Joseph to Potiphar; God blesses Joseph in the eyes of Potiphar; Joseph becomes overseer and is quickly the focus of seduction by Potiphar's wife. Older woman is hot for young slave boy as she relentlessly pursues him. But Joseph has honor and awareness of God. He resists and she becomes scorned with hells fury.But Joseph is a foreigner with no rights and carries the stereotype of outsiders: sex crazed criminals coming into our country to break laws; he ends up in prison on a trumped up rape charge."I thought God was with him ?"......"with help like this....."But 39:21 says the Lord was with Joseph and gained him favor with the warden. Joseph becomes the top trustee and overseer in prison.Then Pharoah wakes up angry and blames the butler and the baker; they are cast into prison. Just so happens that the butler and the baker each have a dream; Joseph happens to notice their sad faces (40:6) which incites Joseph to ask why ? The butler and the baker confide that they each have dreamed an unordinary dream and no one to interpret.Looks like their lucky day - Joseph is a dreamer too and he without hesitation invokes the help of God and interprets the dreams. The butler's dream means he will be restored to his former position; but the baker wasn't so lucky. Then just like Joseph said the butler is restored and Joseph pleads with him to appeal to Pharoah in his behalf. The Book of Jasher says that this appeal angered God and cost Joseph two more years in jail for trusting man and not God.Then at the end of that two years Pharoah had a dream. And oddly enough none of his magicians could interpret it. But the baker suddenly remembers Joseph; they quickly clean him up; then 13 long years after his brothers sold him into slavery Joseph is standing in front of the most powerful man in the world.Joseph interprets Pharoah's dream; Proverbs 21:1 says "the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes".And just like that; a person who is not even eligible to become a ruler (Joseph the Hebrew) becomes supreme overlord of Egypt.Pharoah exalts Joseph so he can prepare Egypt for the up-coming famine; 7 years later famine, which forces Jacob and his children to look for food in Egypt: Joseph deals shrewdly with his brethren and tests them...........17 years after being sold in to slavery Jacob and family bow down to Joseph out of respect : dream fulfilled.What's the point ?Joseph's life and all the details reside in a source that claims to be the eternal word of God.The point is that GOD IS IN CONTROL.The hatred/envy of siblings (a common thing in life) caused Joseph's brothers to want to kill him. By chance, fluke, accident (CFA) (certainly the appearance thereof) Reuben intervenes and subsequently buys time for the Ishmaelite caravan to by CFA travel right where the incident of Joseph being held by his brothers is occurring.All because Joseph had a freaky dream that pissed them off. God caused Joseph's dream; God arranged for the caravan to be passing by: God landed Joseph in Potiphar's house: God allowed Potiphar's wife's libido to be the instrument to land Joseph in prison; God caused Pharoah to suddenly put the butler and baker into prison; God caused the butler and baker to dream dreams; God used the sad face of the butler and baker to cause Joseph to ask why; God caused the butler to forget about Joseph for two years; God caused Pharoah to dream his dream; God then causes the butler to remember Joseph etc.etc.etc.Strip away the claim of God pulling strings and this is the story of chance, fluke, and accident; View the story under the claim and it becomes the story of God controlling everything under the appearance of chance, fluke, accident.Why did God allow all the evil to happen to Joseph ?Because Joseph was on trial, the trial of his faith in God keeping the promise of His dreams to come to pass.Why ?BECAUSE PSALMS 105 SAYS GOD SENT A MAN TO EGYPT, Joseph, a man whose feet they hurt with irons UNTIL THE IRON OF FAITH ENTERED INTO HIS SOUL.Psalm 105 reveals that the entire ordeal of Joseph's life's story was the method (all the chance, flukes, and accidents) of God's way of sending Joseph to Egypt.Why ?To keep His word to Abraham and the prophecy of his descendants becoming like the sand of the sea and going down to Egypt so He could in the time of Moses bring them out into the land He promised Abraham - the promise land.The supreme source sanctioned by God to encounter Him is the record of His word.The supreme source says the primary method to deduce Him from is via what is seen/made. (Romans 1:20)Science has observed that what is seen/made can be accurately described in terms of chance, fluke, accident. IF God in the supreme source operates under the appearance of chance, fluke, accident while maintaining absolute control; then the claim of Romans 1:20 that He can be deduced in what is seen/made is strongly evidenced by the conclusions of science which observe creation to be the product of chance, fluke, and accident.The source of Genesis precedes the discoveries of evolution and Genesis proves God operates under the appearance of chance, fluke, accident. However, neither source, (supreme or primary) are overwhelming enough as to negate the need for faith, which is the one thing God wants, which is the one thing He cannot create.Source of everything I know : Dr.Gene Scott[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-10-2004][This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-10-2004]

The following excerpt is from another topic.Willowtree:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now Cal State physicist Mark Perakh has written a book called "Unintelligent Design" (2004). This book is specifically written to counter the claims of Dembski, Behe, and Johnson.Perakh Quote :"Of course, the proponets of ID theory may insist that the alleged intelligent Creator is not constrained in His choice of design and can, if He wishes so, create systems which appear random despite having been designed. This argument would essentially make the entire dispute meaningless by erasing any discernable difference between objects or events that are designed and those that are not." END QUOTEI interpret this statement to say "randomness" also means a Creator/Designer was not involved.Once again, how does the scientific evidence of random (mutation) suggest no Creator ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------Quetzal :I cut and pasted the above quote to evidence the fact that there are evos who associate randomness, chance, fluke. etc.etc., to be evidence against a Creator/God of Genesis.You described the text from the OP as "statements", negative; they are questions.Evoution and the philosophy that undergirds has formulated a way to insulate itself from those who accuse it of making statements about the Divine without being qualified. This insulation is the claim of Divine neutrality, which I have evidenced (from Romans) to actually be Divine exclusionary.I know you are uncomfortable in this philosophic arena. But allow me to re-phrase one of the questions :Evolution only evidences-against God/Genesis IF the filter of your worldview is operating ?I will press you no more.

Okay, I agree they were questions not statements. I misspoke.However, the point remains that the questions - even as you've restated them/it here, is based on faulty suppositions. The most serious of which is that evolutionary theory has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with God. This is your claim - a biblical quote (the Romans thing) does NOT provide evidence of the validity of this claim. Remember what I posted earlier to BAE in the now-unfortunately closed Has Evolution Been Proven thread? "#5. The evidence offered in support of our ideas must be adequate to establish the truth of the idea." Part of this means that the burden of proof is on the claimant. You are making the claim that evolutionary theory explicitly denies God. You have as yet, in multiple threads, failed to evidence this claim. As it stands, the question you pose is meaningless, as it is the semantic equivalent of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?". IOW, if a person were to answer "yes", then they automatically are accepting your hidden assumptions:1. evolutionary theory is a worldview2. God exists3. Evolutionary theory can be/is used to deny the existence of GodAnd, if a person were to answer "no", you have not only hung them on all three of the above assumptions, but the deliberate trap of implicitly stating that evolutionary theory DOES deny God. IOW, you have not only shifted the burden of proof on the respondant, but tricked them into making a positive claim without evidence.Which, of course, is why I am uninterested in philosophy discussions - from my experience, most of them degenerate rapidly into one or another form of trap like you are attempting here. Sorry, my friend, I am simply not willing to play that game. It has nothing to do with being uncomfortable - it has everything to do with being unwilling to place myself into a position where someone more intelligent or subtle than I am tricks me into answering a question that appears to force me into a stance I am unwilling to support. Philosphers, like tort lawyers, should all be drowned at birth.

quote:

---

But aren't you the people who suggest it is 66 seperate books, in which Esther is now not supposedly part of it? If they are all seperate, then information in the bible CAN confirm itself IF the books are seperate.

---

Based on your logic there, then we should also conclude that the Olympian Gods are real, since we have so many books written by the ancients about them and they all seem to agree that the Gods were as emotional and horny as humans. Let us take a step further and say that fairies and goblins exist also, because we have a whole bunch of books written about them.

Up until last night, I'd been on a 4 day road trip. Right now, I am both tired and satisfied to have gotten away from school for once.Anyway, here goes.

quote:

---

Negative : That is an unprovable opinion. This is a Jesus Seminar subjective invention created to slander the content of the N.T.
Evidence this outrageous claim or withdraw it.

---

I don't really live here, so I do not have the will or the time to look this up. Therefore, I'm just going to withdraw it, for now.You've somehow completely ignored on what I had to say about science and God. Let me say this again. Mainstream science is completely neutral on the issue of the existence of God. What science does is just look for facts and attempt to explain them with theories, not to disprove anything you religious people claim... except for some of your rediculous assertions from time to time like the "gay plague."I was talking to a professor of mine, who is a Christian, about translation of the bible. He confirmed that there is no such thing as a non-interpreted translation from language to the next, especially from an ancient language to a new one. That is why we have the liberal versions of the bible and the conservative versions of the bible. What happens is that a committee will vote to chose what word should be used to translate an ancient word. Depending on which version you are looking at, issues from capital punishment to abortion are addressed differently, because each word means different thing.That is what I mean when I said that the bible cannot be as reliable as you people think. Meanings of words change from language to language. Even if the original was the word of God, unless you go back in time and learn the language from the people at the time you can't know for sure what certain passages really mean.

quote:

---

Romans says God can be deduced from what is seen/made. Failure to make this deduction qualifies violator to be stripped of ability to recognize God in what is seen/made.

---

I was hoping to avoid saying what I have to say now regarding this particular passage from Romans.This passage basically say that you have to have faith first before you could see "God's work" in everything. This is completely the opposite of what the discipline of the scientific method. For one thing, how do you know that you are not delusional when you decide that that tree right outside your house is the "evidence" you've been talking about? Ever heard of the self-fulfilling prophecy?I'm sorry, but this goes against everything that I believe in. I believe that you should be objective when you approach every problem, not try to beat the data with a hammer to make it fit your faith.

LAM quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You've somehow completely ignored on what I had to say about science and God. Let me say this again. Mainstream science is completely neutral on the issue of the existence of God. What science does is just look for facts and attempt to explain them with theories, not to disprove anything you religious people claim... except for some of your rediculous assertions from time to time like the "gay plague."
----------------------------------------------------------------------No I have not ignored what you have said about science and God. Major portions of the opening text (and subsequent posts) are dedicated to my position concerning the alleged Divine neutrality of science.You have completely ignored these arguments and gone behind them by claiming science is neutral concerning God. Science is not neutral, this defies all logic and is an insult to ones intelligence. I see no need to repeat my arguments, especially if you are not going to recognize them.It is the claim of this topic that the Bible explains why scientism (the branch of science that "a priori" rejects God/the branch whose philosophy controls Higher Education, Law, Media) is so successful. This explanation/declaration says the rejection of God to be premeditated. God reacts to the rejection by incapacitating ability to ever recognize Him. Regardless of silly claims of neutrality about God; these claims, are in reality; insulation from accusations of making conclusions about the Divine.Evolution has the emotive and reportive meaning that the God of Genesis was not involved.For the record : Please do not insinuate that I am anti-gay because I am a christian/creationist. I apologize to every gay person in behalf of christianity for the treatment they have received by god-damn fundementalists. Gays are welcome in our church as the only persons not welcome are the fundementalists.LAM quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That is what I mean when I said that the bible cannot be as reliable as you people think. Meanings of words change from language to language. Even if the original was the word of God, unless you go back in time and learn the language from the people at the time you can't know for sure what certain passages really mean.
----------------------------------------------------------------------I have already addressed this. You are essentially being lazy and declaring that difficulty equals "unknowability". You are also essentially saying that variances of translation equals unreliability and thus we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.The issue is the philosophy and truth of certain passages. This topic assumes the Bible to be the word of God. The claim is verified when claims therein are evidenced to be true.LAM quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sorry, but this goes against everything that I believe in. I believe that you should be objective when you approach every problem, not try to beat the data with a hammer to make it fit your faith
----------------------------------------------------------------------This quote was your response to Romans 1:20. It seems your alleged objectivity takes a vacation when the Bible is the subject.In sum : I have only agrued that it is absurd to claim science is neutral concerning God. Everyone has opinions about God and evoultion is designed to thrash the God of Genesis while hiding behind a ridiculous disclaimer. Romans tells us why the massive hostility against God exists and what triggers it.And all you can do is offer non-sequitors about an off topic belief (is the Bible the word of God ?)P.S.What about a response to my reply of your assertions about the Dead Sea Scrolls ?[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-12-2004]

We have 12 manuscripts for the entire report of Herodotus.
Yet he is taken as a god and never questioned.Yet the Bible is a source written by numerous writers across a vast gulf of time. The content is brilliantly harmonious/consistent. There are thousands of manuscripts which confirm a consensus, which doesn't allow for the criticism of conspiracy.The real issue is being sidetracked, which is, certain people do not like what it says so they exist to poison the source with swiss cheese arguments of translation errors. Any errors involve minor controversies and every person in this forum knows what evos say to creos who cite alleged evidenciary inconsistencies in the theory of evolution.

You don't even know what you're talking about, do you?The histories of Herodotus are taken with the same level of scepticism that the Bible is. No historical information is ever taken at face value.What's the deal with the classics department at your college, that actually worships Herodotus?Don't act like there's a double standard, please. All historical texts are subject to the same scrutiny, including the Bible. But last I checked, nobody was (for instance) trying to deny homosexual basic human rights based on the works of Herodotus, so you'll pardon me if some of us think that the stakes are a little higher in regards to the Bible.

Out of nowhere you appear !Glad to see you Crashfrog.Relax, my only point is that the Bible has thousands of independant sources that create the whole text. This fact should forestall any criticism about the lack of corroboration - but it doesn't, which is a testimony to the quality of criticism about the Bible.

Why would it? in fact, the more pieces and more authors, the more likely there are to be parts that don't agree. And that's exactly what we find.