Big Bang Problem

No,I didn't say that,I'm just going by what I was told.
If the Holy Bible doesn't have any credibility over someone's
favorite science teachers,what does?
My point is that we are all in the same boat.
We can be nice can't we,and debate with out getting mad at one
another?
Why can't christians and evolutionists agree that they disagree,
but still respect one another as good people?

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Desdamona

Wow,what a fast little weasle that was,it just flew right by me.
Thanks P',we all needed that wake up call,but can we get back to
the topic? BIG BANG.

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Desdamona

I'm not doing that. I honestly don't see the error.
Could something be wrong with my computer?
I know we need to stay on topic,so I hope we can get back
on it. Thanks for telling me.

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Desdamona

Evidence. Evidence, evidence, evidence.What I mean is, no Bible, no authority, no scientist is to be taken over observations of the universe. What we see in the universe is the ultimate authority.Now, you need to be careful about keeping track of what you see in the universe, and what you think you know about the universe. And sometimes you need special equipment to make the sort of observations that are relevant to science. There's plenty of creationists that I respect as good people, like my parents, or Mike the Wiz who posts at this board.But if one is a liar, or a charlatan, I don't care what they believe - they're not a good person, evo or creo.Liars are bad. Not all creos are liars. Some evos are liars. Good people are good people. Nobody hates you for your beliefs, Des, just your actions. You lie and say hypocritical things. Maybe you're not aware of doing it but the ignorance defense only goes so far.Maybe some creationists have you brainwashed. Maybe they've made it so that you think telling falsehoods doesn't matter if you're doing it to spread the Bible, because the Bible is true, so how could it be lying? That's what I think Kent Hovind, Carl Baugh, Phillip Johnson, and others like them believe. It doesn't matter what they say or if it's true, because they're doing it for the Bible, and since the Bible is true, nothing you say to defend it can technically be a lie.That's bs, of course. Lies are lies. Don't be like those guys. They turn people away from Jesus because they're not truthful.

whose science can we believe?
Where do you begin to look for great science teachers?
Or do they all teach the same thing?
I don't think they do because many claim to be christian.

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Desdamona

I agree with you,but I am not trying to cause any confusion
and I don't understand what the problem is. My writing looks fine to me.
The big bang idea still seems off anyhow.

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Desdamona

desdamona writes:

quote:

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If you do not know something or understand it,why try to convince others of it?

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Do you really think that's what he was saying, des? He was saying that you do not understand it. Go and re-read the post.

quote:

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That is not supporting evidence for the big bang idea.

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No, but the expansion of the universe is. Do some research about it. Look up 'Hubble Expansion' and 'Red Shift' in any encyclopedia (or on Google for that matter). Read what secular science has to say. Then go read what creationists have to say if you want to, but try to at least understand what the scientists are saying and why they are saying it.In a nutshell: The evidence is unmistakable that all of the galaxies of the universe are moving away from one another, all from one central point. As an object moves away from us, its color shifts to the red end of the spectrum. This shift is undetectable except by very sensitive instruments. By measuring the red shift, we are able to determine how far objects in space are from us and in which direction, relative to other objects, they are moving. When the universe is viewed with this in mind, it becomes unmistakable that everything is moving away from one central point, thus there must have been some sort of explosion, or 'bang', at that central point many billions of years ago.Understand also that the science behind the big bang, particularly in regards to the above-mentioned 'red shift', is the same science that gives us doppler radar. If the evidence for big bang were faulty then doppler radar wouldn't work. Doppler radar has helped tremendously in reducing the number of deaths and serious injuries from tornadoes and other storms. It works on the same principle that allows us to see that the universe is expanding.

I don't believe I'm telling lie's. Maybe thats how you feel,but I
cannot accept that.
I don't believe that the holy bible disagrees with the universe.
I think the way people view things is what causes the problems.
It's not that I am ignorant,it's more likely that I don't view
things the same way that you do.
Whats with the special equipment?
I have no problem with equipment that helps people,but you still
have to use caution about everything.
If we all had all the facts down just right,we wouldn't have a debate.

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Desdamona

I don't think anyone here truly believes you're lying, des. Lying involves deception. We may say that you are repeating lies that you've been told, but I don't think anyone here seriously believes that you are attempting to deceive us.You still need to work on the formatting, though. Let up on that 'Enter' key, like I was saying. PLEASE pay attention to this, it'll go a long way toward improving everyone's mood toward you.

For clarity, I have taken the liberty of adding in coloured italics the rest of the paragraph you were quoting, and using the conventional quotation tags.I do understand and know the Big Bang to the level we have discussed here. I put a lot of work into that understanding; it has been built up over several years by amateur reading in my own time. A good background in maths and physics in my undergraduate degree has helped a lot. You don't need tertiary level education to get a solid understanding of the basics, but it is definitely a help. It was hard, but fascinating and well worth the effort. I don't try to "convince" people of things unless I have a reasonably solid understanding myself.I think education in science is worthwhile for its own sake; and that someone who is not themselves educated in science is not equipped to educate others. Education is not something that only happens at schools or universities. If you let them, discussion forums like this are powerful tool for mutual education. We are here to discuss and debate. It is a good place to thrash out ideas in the heat of critical challenge; this means we back up our claims, and retract them if we can't or if we recognize the merits of a refutation from others.Of course none of this was evidence for the Big Bang. I have previously directed you to Message 108. That is a post I wrote recently that outlines five major lines of evidence for the Big Bang. The five lines of evidence described in that post are:

• Cosmic background microwave radiation.
• Cosmological red shift.
• Distributions of isotopes for light elements; such as Deuterium.
• The independently derived ages for stars and galaxies.
• The implications of general relativity.

Read the post for more details. None of these will be easy to understand if you have not heard of them before. To appreciate them in any depth, you'll need a level of comfort with physics. They are solid empirical evidence which has meant that the Big Bang now a confirmed discovery about our universe, accepted by all but a handful of working cosmologists, and the remaining handful of objectors is looking increasingly ridiculous.The last decade has seen a flood of new evidence from space based observatories. It has opened up the field of observational cosmology dramatically. In my view, people will one day look back on the turn of the twenty first century as the golden age of cosmology. It is a very exciting time to be living right now for anyone interested in astronomy.Cheers -- Sylas

desdamona says:

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I don't believe that the holy bible disagrees with the universe.

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A lot of Christians would agree with you on this, including Christians who believe much differently about the bible than you. Such Christians usually try to live their lives the way they believe Jesus would have them do and they don't worry about bible passages that seem to be refuted by modern science. They realize the contributions science makes to everyday life and especially to the quality of life. They have no problem with theories like big bang and evolution because their faith does not rest on a literal interpretation of scripture. They would have agreed with Martin Luther that it is one's faith in Jesus (as opposed to faith in the literal words of the bible) by which one achieves salvation.

Have you also heard what has been said about the ozone layer?
I believe that we can and all do observe things in nature and
special equipment helps us,but we cannot make it all stretch to
fit what we wish it would fit,like you pointed out to me about
the statement made by a post. when you said this is not what they
meant,you had a clear point,yet my point is that you can make things
look like they fit what you want them to,when in reality they don't.
I don't mean you,I mean all of us.We can make asumptions about things
just because someone told us it's this way or that way,but until we
can know for sure,ourselves,there will always be doubt.
I believe we are all created by and with inteligence.
How do I prove this,simple,people and animals,and all living things have inteligence.They also have memory.
I believe that there are many mysteries in the world,and that some
things are too wonderful for us to know,but whether we have a creator
or not shouldn't be one of them,in my honest opinion.
The human brain is a fine example of a computer before there ever was
such a thing ever invented,and humans invented it.
They also claim the talents,like musical ability,ect... can be inherited.
DNA is not perfect as it once was,but the fact that it's as great as it still is proves alot to me.
I believe that with all the DNA sharing that goes on in the world,it's nothing short of a miracle that DNA is still in good shape compared to what one might expect it to be in.
Sharing DNA over and over again breaks down the immune system so that the body becomes sick alot easier.
DNA is very precious and it's very much a miracle that it's not in
worse shape than it is.

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Desdamona

Well, here's the deal.You have to know that your statement is false to be a liar. So, say for instance I encounter a man on the street shouting "New Mexico isn't a state!" (My parents are from there - beautiful state - so I'm aware of the occasional controversy over NM's statehood. )Now, that's an obvious untruth. But he might just be unaware. So I go up to him and say "pardon me, but you might not be aware that New Mexico has been a state since 1912." So, now he knows.But the next week I see him making the same claim. Now I know he's a liar, because he's making statements that I know he knows are false - I know because I told him so.If you keep making claims without rebutting counterarguments, you become a liar. Like, microscopes. You can't observe the cell with your eyes alone - you need a tool to make that observation. Some of the conclusions of astronomers may seem weird to you, looking at the stars with only your eyes, but they make a little more sense when you can see with the instruments that scientists sometimes have.

I don't believe that the bible contradicts itself at all.It can appear this way,and in some areas it did,but with further study I saw no contradiction at all.
Many who believe in Darwin don't believe he contradicted himself,
but many other people believe he did.And it does appear that he did
at first until they learn more.
I do take the bible literally.
Modern science doesn't refute passages in the bible.I believe it helps prove the bible is correct.
I have no problem with science.
I don't believe that whether or not we take the bible literally
is all there is to it.The big bang idea also makes no sense to me.
Even children don't believe in it.It really sounds like fiction.
Animals cannot all look so different as they do by chance,and the
female reproductive cycle cannot do what it does by chance.
I have taken my BBT (Basal Body Temperature) for years and it really works and it shows a very clear pattern,and it's very precise.
seasons cannot be random acts either.
We were created by inteligence with inteligence.This is easy to understand to me.

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Desdamona

des, we need to stay on topic here. We're discussing the big bang, not DNA, the ozone layer or philosophy. Go back and reread what I said about the big bang. Read what Sylas said, too; he knows much more about the subject than I do. I've learned quite a bit from him.Please don't think anyone is trying to disprove God to you, as I told you in another thread. No one here wants to do that. At this moment we are only trying to get you to do just a little bit of research so that you can understand the basic concepts involved.There's a small book available for a very low price at any bookstore: Isaac Asimov's Guide to Earth and Space. Pick up a copy and read it. Asimov had a gift for making difficult concepts easy to understand. I think his book should be required reading in junior high science classes. As I said, the book is small and won't take much of your time to read and digest.It may be that you're scared to do this research because you feel you'll lose your special relationship with God. If that's the case I think you'd be much happer at a website like christianity.com than you ever will be here.