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Author | Topic: "evolution changed into a religion" says prominent Chinese scientist | |||||||||||||||||||||||
randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology, discovered an important fossil which he feels seriously undermines some aspects of evolutionary theory, and basically agrees that the Cambrian explosion cannot be accounted for by current evo models. He says that the reason the West has such a hard time dealing with these facts is because "evolution changed into a religion", which btw is what I have been saying.
But the new fossils have become nothing less than a challenge to the theory of evolution in the hands Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology. Chen argued that the emergence of such a sophisticated creature at so early a date show that modern life forms burst on the scene suddenly, rather than through any gradual process. According to Chen, the conventional forces of evolution can't account for the speed, the breadth, and one-time nature of "the Cambrian Explosion," a geological moment more than 500 million years ago when virtually all the major animal groups first appear in the fossil record. Rather than Charles Darwin's familiar notion of survival of the fittest, Chen said he believes scientists should focus on the possibility that a unique harmony between forms of life allowed complex organisms to emerge. If all we have to depend upon is chance and competition, the conventional forces of evolution, Chen said, "then complex, highly evolved life, such as the human, has no reason to appear." The debate over Haikoulla casts Western scientists in the unlikely role of defending themselves against charges of ideological blindness from scientists in Communist China. Chinese officials argue that the theory of evolution is so politically charged in the West that researchers are reluctant to admit shortcomings for fear of giving comfort to those who believe in a biblical creation. "Evolution is facing an extremely harsh challenge," declared the Communist Party's Guang Ming Daily last December in describing the fossils in southern China. "In the beginning, Darwinian evolution was a scientific theory.... In fact, evolution eventually changed into a religion." Taunts from the Communist Party wouldn't carry much sting, however, if some Western scientists weren't also concerned about weaknesses in so-called neo-Darwinism, the dominant view of evolution over the last 50 years. "Neo-Darwinism is dead," said Eric Davidson, a geneticist and textbook writer at the California Institute of Technology. He joined a recent gathering of 60 scientists from around the world near Chengjiang, where Chen had found his first impressions of Haikouella five years ago.
The Boston Globe, May 30, 2000, Pg. E1; Fred HeerenBoston Globe Article What do EVCers think about crunching the Cambrian explosion down to 2-3 million years instead of 50? Is this prominent scientist correct that this is a serious problem for evolutionary theory? Edit: Well if you are putting it on hold, let me add something before I forget where I found it. The following quotes from a published article making the same point as Chen, but in wider context, that microevolutionary processes put forth in evo models cannot adequately explain the Cambrian explosion.
Davidson & Erwin: Neo-Darwinism Doesn't Work for the Cambrian Explosion Paul Nelson Seven years ago, I was sitting outside a hotel in China waiting for lunch to start (yes, I worked at gaining weight back then), when Caltech developmental biologist Eric Davidson walked up and asked me why I was carrying a diagram from one of his papers. The diagram depicted the complex control region of the Endo16 gene in sea urchins. I told him that I wanted to ask conference participants what process they thought had constructed the highly specified genetic circuitry (over a dozen DNA-binding proteins, interacting at nearly three dozen binding sites, to construct the sea urchin gut) -- what Davidson described as "information processing units 'wired' into the regulatory network so that they receive multiple inputs" (2001, p. 7). Davidson smiled, somewhat ruefully, and said, "Well, I'm not sure, but I know that standard single-base-pair mutations won't do it" -- meaning, as he later explained to me, the textbook neo-Darwinism every college biology student learns. He was more blunt with the science writer Fred Heeren, who was covering the now-notorious conference we were attending. "Neo-Darwinism is dead," he said in an interview. Davidson brought his case for the insufficiency of standard evolutionary theory to the pages of Science this past week. Writing with the paleontologist Doug Erwin, he argued that the "establishment by the Early Cambrian of virtually all phylum-level body plans" is not explained by the usually-invoked evolutionary processes http://www.idthefuture.com/...son_erwin_classic_neodarw.html This message has been edited by randman, 02-20-2006 01:05 AM
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I think Randman has enough going on already. Maybe this one can be refined and released later, but I suggest keeping it on hold for now.
Adminnemooseus This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-20-2006 12:59 AM New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Basically, all the other threads I am on have pretty much stagnated with little to no new discussion at all on them. There's just so much you can do when someone says something means "no Designer" and incompatible with a Creator, and others say, hey, he didn't mean it that way. There's not much to "handle" when all you are doing is repeating quotes and links making the exact same point, and others insist, no, it does not mean that.
I think this topic has merit for promotion. I think it is something the evo community needs to come to grips with. It's not just fundamentalists saying these things, but respected scientists are now making the exact same claims about the insufficiency of evo models to explain the fossil data and the Cambrian explosion. This message has been edited by randman, 02-20-2006 11:32 AM
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I had general feelings that to immediately release the topic to open debate would create a disaster area topic. I didn't have a grasp on any modification suggestions, but I did want to head off any other admin prematurely promoting the topic.
Now, what I am about to post is rather getting into actually debating the topic, but in this situation, I see it as being necessary.
Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology, discovered an important fossil which he feels seriously undermines some aspects of evolutionary theory, and basically agrees that the Cambrian explosion cannot be accounted for by current evo models. Please note what I "bolded" in your comments. The focus is really on the "hows" of the Cambrian explosion.
He says that the reason the West has such a hard time dealing with these facts is because "evolution changed into a religion", . I suspect you are trying to blow the "evolution changed into a religion" phrase all out of proportion. My view is, that Chen is using some hyperbole here (which is OK, but needs to be recognized as such). I (personal opinion) would tend to agree that evolutionary scientists do treat evolution as a "religion", which isn't to say it's a matter of theology. Rather, it is a "religion" in that they have a great interest in and enthusiasm towards the subject. Such as how some people might currently be making the Olympic Games a "religion".
What do EVCers think about crunching the Cambrian explosion down to 2-3 million years instead of 50? Is this prominent scientist correct that this is a serious problem for evolutionary theory? This seems to be the legitimate core theme of the topic.
Quetzal has made this suggestion:
I'd like to suggest promotion of the topic, possibly with a change in title. Rather than yet another "evolution is religion" bs topic, if Randman is willing to change the focus to a discussion of the Cambrian and the position of Haikouella as a basal deuterostome (or not) and its implications, I think that would be a very interesting topic. He's a biologist, and I am very much not a biologist. His suggestion seems very good. Ditch any and all focus on the "evolution as religion" theme and I think we might have a good topic here. Randman, don't change message 1. Maybe submit a proposed revised opening message as a new message in this topic. If and when approved, that new message can become message 1 of the new topic. Comments from Randman or other admins? Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Ditch any and all focus on the "evolution as religion" theme and I think we might have a good topic here. Right! This is exactly the sort of topic that it is best to avoid with randman. It will produce as unproductive a topic as any other with him. However, the details of the evolution of life before and during the Cambrian is an excellent topic.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
To my mind, the comment that he feels Western scientists cannot properly assess the evidence because the issue is so "politicized" and that the West has changed evolution into a religion is at the heart of the proposed topic, not just the factual issues of the Cambrian explosion.
I think context here is important. Of course, the discussion will need to assess whether the facts support or do not support Chen's analysis and other's as well, but that's not the whole issue here. In fact, I suspect that most of the evos here will not agree with the basic facts put forth by Chen and by the geneticist in the second post, and I say that without even knowing what those facts are to be honest, at least in depth. I would love to be surprised, but imo, I do not think an objective analysis is what evolution is about in the States, and neither does Chen apparently. He thinks the debate over it has politicized the issue and moreover turned evolution into a religion. In context, he means the Western scientific community has lost it's objectivity on this issue, and I agree with him on that score. This message has been edited by randman, 02-20-2006 03:03 PM
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
Ditch any and all focus on the "evolution as religion" theme and I think we might have a good topic here. Right! This is exactly the sort of topic that it is best to avoid with randman. I think that "evolution as religion" is a topic theme we should avoid altogether. I suggest the various admins reject all such topics with a comment such as what I said in my previous message:
I (personal opinion) would tend to agree that evolutionary scientists do treat evolution as a "religion", which isn't to say it's a matter of theology. Rather, it is a "religion" in that they have a great interest in and enthusiasm towards the subject. To the various admins - Remember, if and when this topic is released, we need to release a single message version and not this entire PNT. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I think that "evolution as religion" is a topic theme we should avoid altogether. Why? You guys start threads accusing creationists and IDers of having no objectivity, and offer no evidence at all for that, and here we have a respected foreign scientist saying Western evos have lost their objectivity, and you won't promote it? What the heck is up with that? Evos can criticize the motives and character of IDers and creationists without any substantiation, just as a given, and yet I cannot put forth the opinion of a scientist on his peers backed with hard scientific evidence in the rationale of the scientist?
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
To my mind, the comment that he feels Western scientists cannot properly assess the evidence because the issue is so "politicized" and that the West has changed evolution into a religion is at the heart of the proposed topic, not just the factual issues of the Cambrian explosion. If you wish to pursue the debate of the factual and theoretical issues of the Cambrian explosion, we might have a workable topic. In other words, give all, including "the western scientists" a chance to here assess the evidence. Or you can insist upon pursuing "evolution is a religion", in which case you are asserting your own variation of not being able to "properly assess the evidence". Which, IMO, is to make this a rejected PNT. Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I should have flagged it as an off-topic side comment. But it has led to a reply from you, which is also off-topic.
Now back to the considerations of the PNT itself. Please see my previous message. You can do your part to make this a promotable topic, or we can reject it and let someone else try to take the core theme and make it a promotable topic. The choice is yours. Adminnemooseus
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
Why? You guys start threads accusing creationists and IDers of having no objectivity, and offer no evidence at all for that, and here we have a respected foreign scientist saying Western evos have lost their objectivity, and you won't promote it?
Said that way, the topic would be opinion. Instead, we could examine and discuss the evidence that led Chen to such an opinion. If the evidence does not fit ToE, that would surely show up in the discussion of the evidence. If we discuss the opinion, that will generate heat but little light. If we discuss the evidence, maybe something of value can come of it.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I support the partial quoting of an article and giving a link to the entire article. I (in the non-admin mode) often quote the first several paragraphs of an article (example).
I now quote the first three paragraphs of the article you quoted in your message 1:
The fish-like creature was hardly more than an inch long, but its discovery in the rocks of southern China was a big deal. The 530-million-year-old fossil, dubbed Haikouella, had the barest beginning of a spinal cord, making it the oldest animal ever found whose body shape resembled modern vertebrates. In the Nature article announcing his latest findings, Jun-Yuan Chen and his colleagues reported dryly that the ancient fish "will add to the debate on the evolutionary transition from invertebrate to vertebrate." But the new fossils have become nothing less than a challenge to the theory of evolution in the hands Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology. Chen argued that the emergence of such a sophisticated creature at so early a date show that modern life forms burst on the scene suddenly, rather than through any gradual process. Now it may well have been inadvertant on your part, but you started your quotation of the same source with the third paragraph. In particular, you omitted the second paragraph (my bolds):
In the Nature article announcing his latest findings, Jun-Yuan Chen and his colleagues reported dryly that the ancient fish "will add to the debate on the evolutionary transition from invertebrate to vertebrate." Ommiting the first two paragraphs caused the emphasis to fall on the 1st sentence of the 3rd paragraph (again, my bolds):
But the new fossils have become nothing less than a challenge to the theory of evolution in the hands Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology. Comments? Adminnemooseus
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
I think that "evolution as religion" is a topic theme we should avoid altogether. I suggest the various admins reject all such topics with a comment such as what I said in my previous message: There are two possible aspects to such a topic: 1) a long argument about the precise definition of "religion". That needs to be had over again now and then. randman isn't the person to bother having it with. 2)Operating with a definition that separates religion from non-religion based on use of evidence simple becomes a thread on the strength of the evidence without any involvement with the word "religion". A person may or may not be doing a good job of examining the evidence. The underlying reason why they are not isn't as important as the evidence. In such a thread the motives of the individuals isn't meaningful if the specicfic evidence is being discussed. I think that is about where you are coming from but we disagree in my feeling that the need for sorting out what a "religion" is does have to be done once in awhile. I think that, for a change, randman, you and I all agree on what a religion is. So it doesn't need to be discussed. All we need to do is discuss the evidence at hand. In this case the fossil evidence around the cambrian explosion. Of course, it is my opinion that 'evidence' and randman don't belong in the same sentence, paragraph or thread either . I base this on his handling of "gill arches" (under whatever name) for one. In this case he'll turn this into an argument over some silly detail somewhere and stick to a few cherry picked bits of information.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
I would like to set aside all outside considerations of randman, and focus purely on the content of this PNT.
Randman has the choice of two directions to take this topic: 1) Discuss evolution as a religion, which has been previously and repeatedly discussed in depth elsewhere, which will cause this PNT to become a rejected PNT. or 2) Discuss the Chen details concerning aspects of the Cambrian explosion, which will be a fresh topic, promotable to the "Biological Evolution" forum. Randman, please consider my previous messages. Then either 1)withdraw the topic, or 2) submit a new message in this topic, as a possible message 1 of an open to debate topic. We can deal with what the topic title should be if and when you have a promotable message. Adminnemooseus By edit: Note to self - Boston Globe article apparently from May 30, 2000 issue. Many copies of text on internet, but tend to be more or less creationist related sites. Unable to track down copy on Boston Globe site. Also so far unable to track down Nature article. This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-21-2006 05:39 AM New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Comments? I think an OP can be limited. The fact that the Nature article does not dwell on the significance of the find relative to the find itself in terms of changing evolutionary hypotheses about the Cambrian explosion does not lessen or change the fact the same scientist argues the find is problematic for evolution and openly posits exploring different explanations for how the Cambrian explosion occurred.
Elsewhere, he argues bacteria are particularly successful and does not see an evolutionary hypothesis among the current mainstream explanations for why further life forms as appeared in the Cambrian explosion should have appeared.
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