Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage

schrafinator,Did you ever watch the wife swapping show. Its kind of awesome actually where the kids, husband have to abide by this foreign woman as a family member. Its quite interesting that many times the man is found to not be sharing in the family responsibilities. Its all about the roles (listening, understanding, sharing, mothering, fathering, etc...) including the husband how to raise the child from another womans point of view. Its usually an eyeopener from all points of view, etc...Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it. kjv pro 22:6Usually the husband and the children are estatic upon her return and all learned from the family experience.P.S. If I was a muslim woman I'd flee to America for protection from Sharia law, the chinese wifes too are beaten. The bible however says for the husband to respect his wife does not say to beat her. 1 Pet 3:1, 7 - Ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands...in like manner, ye husbands, dwell with them (the wife) according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife as unto the weaker vessel and as being heirs together of the grace of life that your prayers be not hindered.http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-wife-beating-toothbrush.htmThis message has been edited by The Golfer, 01-11-2006 06:37 PM

Seen by who? That doesn't make any sense as you've written it. Moreover, how would you judge strength? Is someone who can support 80 lbs over their head for hours at a time stronger or weaker than the person that can clean and jerk 300 lbs, but only for a few seconds?Men are on steroids. It's important to keep that in mind. That's what testosterone is; a steroid. And it's not unreasonable to wonder what kind of statistical inference you can draw from the simple fact that women and men have, by definition, different bodies.But biology isn't destiny, and just because someone is a man doesn't make them suited for any task, or unsuited for any task. Men and women are basically people, and people are flexible. Women can be firefighters and cops. Men can be counselors and raise children.Women can bodybuild. Men can multitask. And not just in rare exceptions, but almost every person is capable of doing well at these feats with the proper training and practice. So why try to lock people into these roles when it's obvious it doesn't really matter if it's the man or the woman balancing the checkbook, or taking out the trash, so long as it gets done?

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Just to add - I think you're right to ask the question, because all too often the idea of relative strengths or expertise is used to set up the idea that there are relative strengths between men and women, as though you could boil down two groups of 3 billion people each to a limited set of characteristics.

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That's exactly the point I was getting at in my reply to iano.Exactly and precisely.

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Did you ever watch the wife swapping show.

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No.I find the entire concept completely repulsive and sensationalistic and voeuristic.The exposure and humiliation people will willingly undergo for the money is incredible.But this reply did not answer any of my questions, Golfer. In fact, it has nothing at all to do with my post.Here it is again.Perhaps you could reply to my points this time?

Why do Americans vote for a president, you need someone to make decisions. When JFK died the newspapers it says said the men were concerned about Russia, while the ladies were concerned about Jackie. Perhaps the ladies really should not be allowed to vote. But sadly as it be they have this right and likely basing their vote off emotions, etc...I'd just count your blessings if your an American, though when the mystery babylon falls were to rejoice. Right? Because as your brain developed you became a woman. The man is also the stronger vessel. It does not work the woman continually needs to ask for directions. However your on the same team, you add input for what the kids need, you need, to help your family. You need to be the wife, not the man, etc... Not in America, but in china or in one of those muslim countries your husband would likely be respected for beating a rebellious spirit out of you, etc... I think this actually happens in muslim countries. If your husband is a christian then be the wife, let him be the man, but help him make good decisions, be a teamplayer, etc... Depends? You married the guy to have an raise a family. If you married the man to watch television all day, to do your own thing then your the one being disrespectful. If you get a job, are you going to tell the supervisor to take a hike, or are you going to be on the same team. In a family like in a buisness someone needs to make the final decision, like even the president of the USA (he consults with his cabinet, etc...), then he makes the final decision. If you look at an arcade room over 90% are men cause they are better at making decisions.The woman brain needs to ask for directions, they are not able to process as well as the man (Do you like to ask for directions?) If so your likely a woman, etc... The estrogen affected how the brain developed. I'm suspecting its not just the physical edge but this mental edge why the woman needs the man to be the head of the house, but the man needs the womans to be on the same team, etc...Why Daddies Don't Ask Directions"It's really a biological difference," study author Matthias W. Riepe, PhD, tells WebMD. "If you go back to [previous] animal studies, the results are very much the same."The men apparently beat the women by using their brains better. The brain scans showed that men used much more of a part of the brain that interprets geometric clues. Women used only part of this brain region, and, unlike the men, also used other parts of the right side of their brains. Riepe suggests that their strategy for exploring the maze was to look for landmarks, whereas men used both landmarks and geometric clues."While moving around in a labyrinth, men can process information about angles and shapes," says Riepe, a neurologist at the University of Ulm in Germany. "The men have much more information to process, but in doing so, they are doing better."WebMD - Better information. Better health.

Do you have a son? If he was constantly disobedient, would you be willing to stone him to death? Please answer.

i didn't actually. this is a shortcoming of mine. i have no sympathy for victims who do nothing to fight their circumstances. partly because i have done so much to overcome so much and i figure anyone else can too. you clearly don't understand modern television. the father is NEVER in charge in modern television. especially not on the nanny. i once spent some time with a family that worked as you propose when my mom and dad were out of town. i spent a month or more with them. i think. it was horrible. the father had all these ridiculous rules and made them up when he decided you were doing something wrong and then spanked you. we were forewarned of our punishment and then recieved it in an hour or so. out of the moment and all hat. but once he spanked me for reading in the car around dusk because he decided i was going to ruin my eyes. worst month of my life. an idle mind is the source of scholarship. bible scholars can be so because they are not busy working. those rules are outdated methods for controlling the masses nothing more. and i resent you using them in a discussion with me about communicating with children. roles should develop according to a particular couple and the gifts god gave each individual. we have our own minds and our own souls and god has made us according to his perfect design. i am unable to submit. not because i don't want to, but because i can't. i can't imagine that god would force something like that upon me if he made me and called me 'good'.This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-11-2006 09:54 PM

i have nothing to say. nothing except that maybe you should take your tax dollars to some other country. you are a male. you lack part of your dna. stop being bitter about it.sorry admins. completely off-topic and also terribly inappropriate. but under the circumstances, i think it's reasonably justifiable. i would suggest that what you need is The Zero Tolerance Guide to Punctuation. it might help you with your 'you're' problem.also, why is a woman's only acceptable concern some man's foul progeny? and why can't a man be concerned with his children? is he only concerned when it comes to 'just wait till your father gets home!'? an arcade? ok i did a dictionary search just to make sure there wasn't a different definition. you're really serious that being in an arcade is proof that men are better at making decisions?i should hope a woman marries a man because she wants to spend all her time with him, not to squirt out his foul progeny. my relationships are thus. i have a life; i have interests; i have desires; i have goals. if a man would like to be part of that life, then that's grand. but it will be to share my life, not to reject it. i am me first and a girlfriend/wife/whatever second. but then i have less and less desire to be a wife. estrogen doesn't affect women's brains. on the contrary, progesterone cuts the lobes of a man's brain in utero. thus the hemispheres of the man's brain are incapable of communicating with each other... much like men. i would argue that men don't ask for directions because they don't trust of desire or value the input of others. this would be well supported (anecdotally) by the prevalence of such 'shut-up-and-get-back-in-the-kitchen' leadership as you suggest is the man's job.you're really going to trust something quoted on webmd as hard science? really?why is it that people pit males and females as evolutionarily opposed to each other? we are equal, necessary halves of the same creature. we cannot be biologically successful without each other. men cannot have evolved separately in order to 'beat' women. it's the stupidest thing i've ever heard.(fixed broken link - AdminNWR)This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 01-11-2006 11:29 PM

No, I think you thinking of the old testament you can only guide your son in america (laws of the land), but you can be the dad. If your son survives he will likely end up just like you. Life's funny at times over stuff like this, etc...How about a contract you both sign, rules you both can accept until hes 18. I personally think you'd get farther playing with the sons spare change (reason with him) help him get a partime job, as a part of the contract. Vocational or college night school if hes got some interest in say cars, computers, etc... You've got to at least try to a part of the processes, but in the end your only the bow, the son is like the arrow. He will be his own man, and that can be a good thing, hes likely just rebelling cause he is getting ready to leave the nest(to be the man). I personally think the social workers have screwed up the parental roles, if kids are in charge even spankings will not solve much. He still understands he needs to obey the laws of the land, etc..Its an incredibly hard yet perhaps the old ways of stoning were not all that bad of a way to keep the kids like respectful. I suspect that the only reason stonings were written in the old testament bible so parents were like respected. The stonings were done by your peers, like your son would have to stone one his best friends to death for being like disrespectful to his parents. He would likely be quite respectful no doubt after partaking in such a stoning of one of his best friends. It sounds cruel but actually the father wouldn't likely be doing the stoning.The bible talks of bears coming out of the woods after some kids cause of disrespect. I think your son is quite lucky your not living in Iran, or China. I hear children like say in japan are quite respectful of their elders.Whats different here in America, perhaps is starts with womens rights, whose in charge. When the mystery babylon is destroyed by fire were suppose to rejoice, in part this might be part of the why, etc...

The fundemenatal marriage is more than just about you, its also about grand children for your parents. Would your mom be delighted to be a grandmother to your kids? You can still have a career, but should be because your a wife, a mom, and not just for self. The child is more yourn than his, because he has your mitochondria. right? I agree with you however that the man should have as much right over a child in the womb as the mother. Abortion should always require the mans concent because the womens body is not the childs body in the womb. Right? I agree with you two necessary halves to the marriage, you bring social skills, the man leadership skills. I agree its easier to have someone give you the answer, but well isn't that sort of like cheating. I'm perhaps too empathetic and thus but can not but appreciate your an overcomer. I hope your not digging a different kind of hole because of your circumstances. I don't see all wives as victims but if you fight the man then you might be a victim. Why can you not love the man, so he's busting his behind for your protegies. If your teaching the kids to respect the love of your life, is not that a good thing. I guess you can break or make circumstances. Right?

you really thing brutality is the solution? that stoning children is the way to respect? you must be mistaking fear for respect then, because thats what it would be, the reason its in there is because no one cared that people beat their kids, now we know that it scars them for life yes because, you know women are just mindless slaves meant to do every mans whim, giving them the right to vote is like giving sheep clothing
i'm starting to think you are in the wrong millenia golfer, or the better reasoning is you are nothing but a sexist troll

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Perhaps the ladies really should not be allowed to vote. But sadly as it be they have this right and likely basing their vote off emotions, etc...

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...I cannot believe that you just said that.Men are just as likely to be dumb when it comes to politics, maybe more so - on account of all that testosterone messing up their heads. Obviously they can't make good decisions on who to vote for because they're so aggressive and reckless, right?Hey if we're going for sweeping generalisations, let's go crazy!

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Because as your brain developed you became a woman. The man is also the stronger vessel.

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Hmm, let's ponder this statement.Stronger physically? Not a chance, women tend to be tougher - as far as I know, it's because a woman's body has to handle the trauma of childbirth.Stronger psychologically? Again, as far as I know, women have far better coping mechanisms than men. Know what demographic group has the highest rates of suicide in Ireland? Men aged 18 - 25.Stronger spiritually? Well, we're not arguing over this point.So I don't know where you're getting this idea of men being "stronger". Maybe you're using a system of rating I'm not familiar with.

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Why not an equal partnership. Like a friendship. Between adults.

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It does not work the woman continually needs to ask for directions. However your on the same team, you add input for what the kids need, you need, to help your family. You need to be the wife, not the man, etc...

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Excuse me? Since when do you speak for one half of the human race? You mean to tell us that ALL women continually ask for directions from their husbands? What are you basing that on, other than your own vague ideas?

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You married the guy to have an raise a family.

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I'm assuming you're saying this because you suddenly have some mystical insight into another person's thoughts and feelings even though you've never met and, in fact, you know nothing about their life and situation.

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If you married the man to watch television all day, to do your own thing then your the one being disrespectful.

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So, a wife is disrespectful if she decides to do something for herself. And if a husband does it... I detect a double standard here again.

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If you get a job, are you going to tell the supervisor to take a hike, or are you going to be on the same team. In a family like in a buisness someone needs to make the final decision, like even the president of the USA (he consults with his cabinet, etc...), then he makes the final decision.

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...Because a business, with a lot of different people fulfilling specific roles for a short time and they can leave whenever they like, is the same as a single contract between two people who can have any number of different roles and that is supposed to be for life.I also have to note that in a business gender doesn't determine who is most capable of leading. Here's a personal anecdote - I work for Apple, and the top management of the entire European division is nearly exclusively women.

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If you look at an arcade room over 90% are men cause they are better at making decisions.

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I'm confused.How exactly does playing computer games determine how good anyone is at making decisions?Is this your crazy moon-logic again?

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The woman brain needs to ask for directions, they are not able to process as well as the man (Do you like to ask for directions?) If so your likely a woman, etc... The estrogen affected how the brain developed. I'm suspecting its not just the physical edge but this mental edge why the woman needs the man to be the head of the house, but the man needs the womans to be on the same team, etc...

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Oh get over it. All you're doing at this stage is tossing out the same daft assertations that were refuted several posts ago.Women don't need men to be anything. They don't need to be controlled, don't need guidance, don't need to follow-the-leader - they might need a little understanding but hey, the same can be said of men.Women are human beings in their own right, not space aliens or animals!{edited to fix major format problems}This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 01-12-2006 01:03 PM

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"Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do."

i don't actually care what grandchildren my mother wants. i don't want to have kids. if she wants grandchildren, she can adopt them herself. no. never. his health is not endangered by the pregnancy. he has no say. he could just go impregnate some other broad. first, not all men have leadership skills. second, what? we're not even speaking the same language. and why do you keep saying things that assume that my main goal in life is to have kids? really. i'm not a baby bag with legs. stoppit.

Remember we are talking about a "fundementalists" view of marraige - which is decided by what the bible says - not what we ourselves feel is best. It appears that a man is called on to be the head of the household and a woman called on to follow the lead of her husband. What does this mean precisely. Does it mean the man can't cook or sew or that the woman cannot do the diy around the house or have an interest in baseball - and in so doing, utilise the particular gifts they have? I don't think so. However, in involving oneself in various interests, one shouldn't foresake or ignore the order as God decided it should be.It think the crux of things has less to do with specific activities and more to do with the idea of the man being the head. The first question to be answered is "is there any need for a head at all?" I think that yes there is. Of course a couple should work together and evaluate together and take action together. The more their noses are pointed in a common direction the better. However, there are many fundemental decisions that need to be made within a marriage where the potential for fundemental disagreement can take place:- whether to have more kids
- whether the family should move home to another part of the country
- whether it is better that both work and the kids are placed in creche
- whether a risky but life enhancing operation should be performed on a child.etc, etc.Now it is best if these things are discussed and both people can come to an agreement or compromise which they feel achieves the best of all results. But what if they can't. What if they remain in disagreement about risky surgery on a child? A decision has to be made and in the end, assuming disagreement persists, someone has to make it. The need for a head at all is I think, obvious, barring some other way of sorting things out .Why should it be the man? There are many men who would make piss poor heads of households. We all know that. But the fundi's view has a couple of things about it which may be worth touching on:- the set-up refers to bible led household not any old household. A person who doesn't hold to the bible can do what they like here. They do what they like everywhere else anyway.- Gods PRIME purpose for a believer is not that they have a happy, contented lives but that they become holy. God has his eye on the eternal picture and is concerned that each of his children become like him. And he deals with the individual. Obedience is blessed and disobedience disciplined. The man who shirks his headship can expect discipline from God. The woman who supports (as helper - and remember "helper" it is a strong word) her weak husband to become a better head, who maintains the role she has been given can expect to be comforted and blessed and possibly have God bless her by leading her weak husband to make good decision despite himself.Paul, in chains in a jail cell could write "for I have learned the secret of contentment in ANY situation. When I live with (or in obedience to) God. Beaten and whipped whilst on a missionary journey, himself and his companion could sit in a jail cell singing Gods praises.The issue is not whether the man is a better head or not than the woman - patently very often he won't be. The issue is to do with obedience to God. It is for him to set up the order of things...and ours to obey. People who believe in God and his authority, submit to him and what he says. Theirs is simply to obey - not questionThat is the Christian walk. Not easy, often subject to failure. But a Christian is defined as being a person who has made the decision to trust God and his lead and not "to rely on your own understanding". And the more they walk after God the more they are blessed with understanding about his order and the more they come to agree with his order.

Schraf, see message 209 responding to Crash, which elaborates a little on how a "fundi" might view things