Gods and Demons

Would you prefer that he didn't? That he restricted their will (in so far as he has given them one)? If so would you like that he restrict your will too (in so far as he has given you one)?. Like: restricted you from doing things that offend him - turn you into a robot or the like? He didn't set us up for a fall - we were born fallen. He set man up will a free will and it so happened that there existed a person (satan) who could ensure man had something to chose between. God allowed a situation where it could chose against him. And chose Adam did. We just get the consequences of Adams choice. Its not a question of fairness its a question of consequences. What does God knowing this have to do with anything? He knowing what we will chose to do or what a demon will chose to do does not make our or their choosing any less choosing In order to witness what demons do and what we do requires us to do it. No us and no demons then God cannot witness it. He can witness it before we've done it - before we're even born. But we have to exist at some point to actually do it. Like I say above - he knew us before we were formed in our mothers wombs. He doesn't have to predict anything for he knows it already. But if we never existed, ever, then he couldn't know it - for we could never do what he knows we've done. Why not?

Let me explain: Yes. Of course not. Resricting the choice of demons to hurt us is not connected to restricting human free will. I do not see why restricting the choice of demons would mean we (humans) would have to give up our free will too. Your god could easily do one with out the other. Your god already knew the out come of Adams' choice. To you god it was a known variable. Either your god had no power to prevent the hurt Adam and Eves' choice caused or it chose to let that choice stand.Your god could have not created the apple. (See drugs analogy below) I agree. My point is that your god knows I will never believe in it without a standard of prood it is not willing to provide. Your god knows this! It choses to let me not believe.Hiding the proof is, I contend cruel and unbecoming of the xian god (as I understand its' character from my RE class). This means your god is constrained and cannot percieve a future that may not exist. Is it beyond the power of your god to model this universe? Why use living feeling humans if not to know that they feel the things they feel?This has the implication that your god is running a black hearted experiment that would not get past a UK Ethics Commity for resarch grants. To find out if humans will follow its' arbitary rules it sets up honey traps. See modelling the universe above.Therefor for some reason known only to your god, it creates demons with the express intention of tempting humans because your god knows that we must be tempted or we would not act out of temptation.It still boils down to you god tempting humans because it knows that humans are flawed and it wants to watch (enjoy? record?) our anguish (and joy I am reminded).Can't it call off the demons and leave us alone?We try to restrict illegal drugs in our society because they cause (in many cases) nothing but misery. Your god should do the same with demons.If it really love us.Which I doubt.Edited by Larni, : More ranting!

But if there is nothing to counter our consciences then would not conscience always prevail? We want to be independant-of-God creatures and so it seems to me that ongoing temptation is necessary in order to provide us daily with the kind of genuine choice that this independant exercising of free-will needs. Conscience vs. Temptation is grist to the free-willed mill.Of course our exercising our free-will against God digs an ever deeper hole for us - but God is providing that which we demand. The day may come when we realise the error of our ways (only because he is perpetually attempting to reveal this to us). We may come to want to be shot of this deadly independant free will. Independant free-will leads to sin...and the wages of sin is death. We might come to realise that there is, in fact, something dead about us God knew the outcome - but he didn't make the outcome. Adam was given choice. I doubt he knew every single consequence of the fall for all his progeny. He probably knew very little of it. But no matter. He was given a choice. A balanced choice: A or B - with insight enough to desire one or the other - and decide for himself. God could have prevented the choice only by removing free will. But no free-will = automatons - in which case there would be no joy in life at all. Automatons don't experience joy (d)Evil is choosing against against Go(o)d. God doesn't have to create evil. Evil arose out of choice. Thus it came into existance. And if it existed then there could be knowledge about it. Either God is hiding from you or you are hiding from him. Remember Adam in the garden after he sinned? That is what sin causes us to do - to hide from God. To want to keep our dark secrets locked up. To avoid having light shone on them. We always try to hide our sin in darkness. Note that God, although knowing where Adam was (for how could he not?) called out "where are you?" Adam stopped hiding from God - God didn't come barging into the shrubbery behind which he was hiding. Jesus Christ coming alters the reaction of God to a man responds to Gods call. A man is already banished from the Garden so now, through Jesus Christ the reverse happens. Redemption. He is brought back into the Garden. Instead of the Justice which already banished him, the man receives Grace.The symbol of Gods Holy Spirit is what? A dove. Meek and gentle. Gods spirit won't come breaking and entering into your life. Something in you needs to invite him in. He can knock persistantly, painfully persistantly in fact. But you need to open the door. You need to invite him in.And then you will have all the proof you need. The standard will be sufficient for your needs if that is what you need. He is not cruel: playing you like a puppet on a string. But he needs to know the invite is genuine. That the person doing the inviting realises what the consequences (in principle - if not in detail) of what they are doing, actually are. Inviting God in is not an experiment for the curious, engaged on lightly with the notion that the process can be reversed. Its the most serious step a person can take. And it may take some time before the person gets to the point whereby their invite is a genuine " please come in - I need You"The actual deed takes many forms but they all share the same traits.The invite needs to be humble - for it is God who is being asked in.The invite needs to be genuine - from the persons heart - not intellect.The invite needs to be accepting of the inviters need that God come in.And the invite needs to trust. Trust that if invited thus, that he will in fact come. It is the first of a long series of placing trust in him. We don't always - we will rebel again. But the first trust is the ultimate jump. It runs deep.Impossible? With man it is impossible but with God it is possible. He is the one who brings a person to the point of being able to invite so. The process may hurt, it may cause anguish, you may have to despair at times. But that's down to your attempts to break free from his pull. Medicine doesn't always taste nice. God perceiving a future that doesn't come about in fact would be God fantasising. Perhaps he does that - but I can't see his need to do so. I'm not sure what you mean here Larni. God knows what we will do. Our yesterday, today and tomorrow are all present tense to him. There is nothing to experiment with. He knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will not be. He knew that before he created them. If damned, their rejection of him will have still have been their own. His knowing that doesn't change that. That's the enigma of eternity for you:1. God knew that a person would reject him even before they were born2. God made the person.3. The person always had the choice to reject God or not.4. If God hadn't have made them (the "they would be better off not having been made" argument) then they would have never had the chance to come into a relationship with him.Luckily its not a requirement that a person understands the workings of eternity in order to be saved. That is an intellectual affair which I don't fully understand either - but I do see how it can be. All you have to be able to do is see everthing before it happens This is another of those fascinating things about God. God didn't create demons per se. Demons are those who rejected God. They made themselves be what they are. And God uses that fact to provide us with choice. God knew that the Jews would put Jesus to death and so used the evil of man in order to accomplish a central part in his plan. Can you picture the look on Satans face?! He was there, working on the Pharisees in order to tempt them into crucifying Jesus. But in doing so he shot himself in the foot and set himself up for his own demise. Priceless!Two thieves on a cross beside Jesus. Both hurling abuse - both responding to Satans incitement. Then one turning and saying "Lord - remember me..." He may have been abusing but God revealed to his heart what it was that he was - and he accepted this and turned: "Lord, remember me..." In a way yes. Man is made in two parts: dying body and eternal spirit. What God saves is the spirit. Its this which gets 're-born'. Now it still resides in a sinful, dying body and so a war commences. When a person is saved they are (in a legal, forensic sense) taken out of the army of Satan and put into the army of God. Demons cannot get at the spirit anymore but they can call on sinful flesh to respond to its temptationsBut unlike before, God comes to inhabit us and gives us means by which this temptation can be 'put to death'. His Holy Spirit residing in us. Power, real power to deal with it. Its not all plain sailing by any means. We will still trip and stumble and it is a life-long battle. But the battle is no longer going on inside me - it is restricted to my flesh - separate from me in a sense. And I can perceive the difference. It makes all the difference. I would encourage you to read the latter sections of Romans 7

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14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do”this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

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21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

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This is a man on the point of issuing that invite. He has come to see himself totally captive to sin. The temptation comes and it is to a complete addict at this stage. Free-willed (his will wants to say "no!") but gone so far in his addiction to sin that his free will is not enough to cause him not to do what he doesn't even want to do anymoreGod didn't make the drug. Satan is the pusher of it. And we shoot it up not realising that addicted we will become. That's why the Christian-originated Alcholics Anonymous involves a person admitting they are powerless over their addiction to that particular sin."I am X and I am an alcoholic - who will rescue me from this body of death. Thanks be to God (my higher power) through Jesus Christ"The man who cries this out from his heart will invite God in. in doing so he will have passed from death to life. And he only has to pop down a sentence to Romans 8:1 to find out one of the many gifts which God showers on his newly adopted ex-prodigal son. Edited by iano, : formatting

I'd say so. The original concepts of good and evil are the invention of man, not by divine revelation. That's why religion is constantly changing.

Sorry Iano, can't reply in the way I would like to untill next week. Hope you can hang on.Larni.

No prob Larni. Take care.(maybe then you can tell us a little more about your avatar. It looks for all the world like a demon getting his fingers singed by the big C)

Because Jesus is God incarnate. Evidence of this is found all throghout the Scriptures, both in the B'rit Hadashah and the Tanakh. We know that in order to be Moshiac, one must fulfill the requirements of the Scriptures.” Moshiac must be Jewish: “ . you may appoint a king over you, who your God shall choose: one among your brethren shall you set as king before you." -Deuteronomy 17:15” Moshiac must come from the tribe of Judah: “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes.” -Genesis 49:10” Moshiac must be a male descendant from the line of David: “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish His kingdom. -2nd Samuel 7:12” Moshiac must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem: “ . I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.” -Ezekiel 37: 26-27” Moshiac will establish peace on earth: “They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn of war anymore. -Micah 4:3” Moshiac will rule at a time when Jews will obey God’s commandments: “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall have one Shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.” -Ezekiel 37:24Abraham had a son, Ishmael, in which he assumed the blessing would come through. However, God told Abraham: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name, Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.” -Genesis 17:19And so, Isaac begat Jacob, who begat 12 sons of his own. These sons would establish the 12 tribes of Israel, from which they are so named even to this day. God reveals that of the twelve sons, the fourth, ”Judah,’ would be the one through whom the Messiah would come out, of. After a stretch of time, David was hailed as the greatest Jewish king to sit on the throne of Israel. David ruled for approximately 1,000 years prior to Yeshua. God informed David that his descendant would rule forever. We see that HaShem has decreed that there would be a king who will rule forever and that he would come from the nation of Israel. This narrows messianic eligibility down for any prospects. As well, Messiah will specifically come from the tribe of Judah. These two restrictions significantly narrow down the eligible list of candidates for the Messiah.This is our messianic foundation. What does the Word say about it? Now, lets look at some Scripture, and you tell me if Mashiac sounds like a mere mortal or something Divine:“But you Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting.” -Micah 5:2“For unto us, a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His Name will be called, ”Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.’ Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His Kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.” -Isaiah 9:6-7The prophet, Micah and Isaiah, wrote these prophecies some 700 years prior, to Jesus’ birth. In these messianic prophecies they describe the Messiah as being eternal. We know that only God is eternal, and so, Messiah cannot be merely a mortal man, but rather, something greater than that. Aside from this glaring point, since when is a man, any man, referred to as ”Mighty God’ and ”Everlasting Father?’ So, what else are we to deduce, other than, that the Messiah is God incarnate?The Biblical Hebrew word for ”one’ is ”Echad,’ which speaks of a corporate oneness, not merely a numeric count. God, then, is a plural personage, and yet, is still ”one.’ The first evidence of such can be found in the very first book of the Pentateuch, Genesis.“And God said, let US make man in Our own image, after Our likeness.” -Genesis 1:26Who is the ”Us’ in this piece of Scripture? We know that angels do not have the power to create, so we can rule them out. We know that man has not the power either, nor was he alive on earth to create himself; so, they too, are ruled out. The ”Us’ and ”Our’, is connoting the Godhead; the Holy Trinity. Belief in the Trinity is one of many aversions that Judaism has with Christianity. They view this as idolatry, seemingly incapable of distinguishing the characteristics of God, and thus, equating them to polytheism, as you've mentioned. Interestingly enough, the psuedo-spiritual belief, ”Kaballah,’ which is widely venerated by many Jews, describes God as having 12 characteristics composing one God. Many Christian scholars have attempted to point this out, as well as using the Old Testament and New Testament as a reference, but to no avail. The majority of Jews to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah and are still waiting the One who would place Yisrael above all nations. When Jesus stated that He and God are one, He was not merely stating that He was in the perfect will of God. Jesus is actually saying that He is God, and God is, Him. Jesus is God incarnate; something that is considered a heresy to all of the Abrahamic faiths, except Christianity.“In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it” -John 1:1-5“Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on the cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the Name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” -Philippians 2:5-11The Apostle Paul explains in this verse that understanding the Trinity is not something that can be fully grasped, humanly speaking. Even so, I give you an illustration in nature to help us understand what God means, by God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. What is water? What is ice? What is vapor? They are forms of liquid, solid, and gas. What is their chemical compound? Do they biochemically differ from each? No. They are all forms of H2O. While its true that they each have separate characteristics, they are still the exact same thing. So truly, though they are separate, they are still, but one. Likewise, when the prophet Yeshayahu (Isaiah) declared, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Name of the Lord,” he was not being redundant for effect. He was conveying the principle of the Trinity. The intimation given by Isaiah is explicit.For these few reasons and many, many more, I have come to believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

Hi iano, I found this post very interesting.I know this has all been covered loads of times, but there are still things that trouble me. you say even if this is the case (and I think there are arguments for and against), God *did* make Adam. doesn't this mean that God created Adam with this outcome in mind?you kind of support this idea here: are you suggesting that in order for things to be 'perfect' between God and man that free will needs to be discarded (by one party or the other)?

No worries OB-wan, an evangelists work is never done. Welcome down to the pit of Hell.Its worth noting that I'm trying to explain things as best I can. But I don't know how eternity works. The ideas are based on attributes of God that I do know about - and so a theory forms. Its a good enough method to speak 'factually' for most folk around here I don't see why that must be. God knew the outcome of course, but that is different than saying the that outcome was the one he intended to happen (if that is what 'had in mind' means to you). The choice Adam made was only one possibility. He could equally have chosen not to eat of the apple and God would have known that and had a way to deal with that so as to achieve his 'ultimate' objective. Which is this:God made us to come into relationship with him. That he could love us and that we could love him back. But love is only love if freely given. You can't coerce or threaten or force someone to love you. God loves us freely. He choses to do so. His mind is made up. But that's only one half of the story. For the relationship to work we must be allowed to chose whether to love back or not. He must create us with the potential for choosing not to.Like I say, if Adam had chosen otherwise God would have an equally perfect way of dealing with that so as to achieve the same objective No. Just independant of God free-will. Then what we are left with is dependant on God, referring to God, asking of God, free-will. The relationship is a loving one but it shouldn't be seen as a man-modelled man/wife relationship - one based on both being 'equal'. The model given is Father/Son. Once that relationship is formed it will (eventually come hell or high water) become one whereby the young son looks adoringly at his father and seeks his guidance, seeks to please, hero worships him. Like young sons on earth often do before sin and father-independence enter the fray.Sons can have free-will - its just that the boundaries within which he operates are not the same as with an adult. The Father protects and limits (either through loving us - a powerful tool, or by discipling us - also a powerful too) so that our expression of free-will become increasingly healthy and good for us and others.Not totalitarian free-will like those who have no such relationship possess. Like most dictators we all go through enormous lengths to keep control of it - silly billies that we are.Edited by iano, : formatEdited by iano, : formatEdited by iano, : put '' around ultimate. This to illustrate that I am dealing with a man-centric notion - which is only a partial aspect of things. This is all about God at the end of the day

thanks for the welcome, and thanks for your thoughtful reply. yes, that was what i meant by 'had in mind'. i'm still not sure i'm convinced that God could 'intend' to make Adam the way he did without 'intending' the outcome of Adam's choice (and of everything else). but let's pretend i am for the moment.you're saying that God creates us with 'totalitarian' free will but wants us to voluntarily limit it to God-dependent free will? do you think think that someday everybody will do this, and everybody born from then on will also do it? is this how you think it works in heaven (assuming you believe in spirits going to heaven)?

Totalitarian free-will is not what God created. He created a position whereby that could come about. It goes in stages:Prior to the fall, Adam had God-dependant free will. He didn't chose this he just had it and didn't know any better. God, for instance let him name animals and if he had called an elephant a mouse and a pig a camel God wouldn't have minded. God gave him dominion over all on earth - which would have involved all kinds of choices. Adam was free to chose what he liked within the boundaries God set.Then God allowed a situation where Adam could make a choice against God. The apple being the object of choice and the serpent being a catalyst in order to instigate an opposing-God choice to counter God-obeying choice. The scene setting for free will outside the previous boundaries (for free will always operates within boundaries). But this was not yet free will itself. Free will only arrives at the point of it being exercised. And the moment it was exercised free will within these boundaries was immediately lost again. Adam was expelled from Gods direct presence (and thus influence)When Adam chose he fell and sin entered into him. Part of him died just like he had been told he would - it was his spirit that died - the bit that is receptive to God. Instead, sin sets up new boundaries for free-will to operate in. And the boundaries are that man cannot help but choose against God - precisely the opposite to Adam in his naming animals phase - when every choice he made was equally pleasing to God. Now all his choices are sin-tinted and displeasing to God - for they are made within sin-encased boundaries. God hates sin.Totalitarian free will: perfectly refelcted in the moral relativism of today. Man coming right out and saying that he is free-willed in a totalitarian sense. He decides what right and wrong. He is master of his own destiny. The tragedy is that man actually thinks it is him in control. He doesn't realise that he is operating within a boundary controlled by a dictator bigger and more cunning than him. His own dictatorship is an illusion. He is actually a slave. A slave to sin. And within these boundaries, Satan has a field day. Its like shooting fish in a barrel!God is bigger than Satan however. And Gods way of salvation is to reveal mans enslavement to him. And when man comes to see - he cries out for release. And as soon as he does he is released. Only to go back to Gods boundaries again - where he can again express his free will This is the subject of a PNT of yours and would be a ways too off topic to go into here anyway. Perhaps there if and when it is promoted.

you're quite right - i was being impatient. i'll stop taking this thread off-topic

You can respond to what I wrote should you wish to. It meanders around the area of God and demons which is the threads topic. Its the latter point which needs some time to percolate through

if god created the world , he must have created the potential for every thing that does occur , to occur ..... thus he did create "Totalitarian free-will" , even it is by the most indirect route .. other wise you open the argument to emergent systems that are beyond gods control...is free will linked to a reward / punished system really free will ...pick any door to go through .. but i will ...kill you/ give you 5000 ...if you pick the red door ... kind of taints your free choice ...

Yes God created the potential for things. He set a rock up on the edge of a high cliff and created the potential that someone would push it off the cliff. But the person didn't have to. That they did is down to them. God set the boundaries. He got to say what they were. You might grant him this right? "Adam. Operate within the boundaries I set or you will die." What was inside the boundaries was plenty but man chose to have something placed outside the explicit boundary. He choose not to take Gods advice.That was Adam. For the rest of us its not quite the same. Its not this or that. Hell is the default option. And God is under no obligation to do anything about it. It wouldn't make him any less just if he did nothing about it. But he chose to do something about itIts not "this or that" its "you are surely doomed - and I can save you"You are free to reject the offer.