ramifications of omnipotence for God

considering that i have no idea what i think about god, you may be surprised by what i have considered. you keep repeating yourself. i think you're full of crap. i'm not avoiding answering them, i'm saying they aren't relevant questions. whose claim?and failing to be proactively perfect does not mean being nasty. no. it would seem that the reason god gives for the people of israel to worship him is that he brought them out of the land of egypt. he doesn't say "i'm omnipotent and perfect and i make bubbles burst into cherry-flavored farts," he says "i'm the lord your god who brought you out of the land of egypt." it's a reciprocation for services rendered.christians worship god because he (at least theoretically) released them from their guilt, not because he's lollipops and sunshine.and me? i haven't figured any of it out.

ICANT responds to me:

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Please supply Bible version, book, chapter and verses that state that:
"God can do anything".

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Let's not be disingenuous. This is precisely what I was responding to: Do not confuse specific turns of phrase with meaning. There are lots of ways of saying that god can do anything without requiring the specific words, "God can do anything," in that specific sequence.That said:Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.Lamentations 3:37: Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?
3:38: Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?Ecclesiastes 7:13: Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?Deuteronomy 32:39: See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.And let us not forget more direct statements:Matthew 19:26: But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.Mark 10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.Luke 1:37: For with God nothing shall be impossible.Jeremiah 32:17: Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:Jeremiah 32:27: Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?Job 42:1: Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that thou canst do every thing and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
42:2: I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.Hmmm...it appears that god knows everything, too, according to that passage.Genesis 18:13: And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
18:14: Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.Hmmm...looks like god directly says that he can do anything.Oh, and for the claim that the word "omnipotent" doesn't appear in the Bible:Revelation 19:6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Will those be enough?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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When God stops evil from happening the world will come to an end as you and I know it.

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So? What is he waiting for? If he can stop it and he doesn't, then he is malevolent by definition.You say that he is not willing for people to perish, and yet people perish. Ergo, you've just contradicted yourself.Unless you're saying god can't do it.We're back to the very simple questions that never seem to get answered directly:Capable or incapable? Yes or no.Willing or unwilling? Yes or no.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Oh, let's not be disingenuous. The fact that the term "omnipotent" does not appear in the Bible doesn't mean that the concept isn't present. The Bible directly states that god can do anything. Do you really need me to quote the verses?

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That is obvious. However, this does not systematically mean that God does whatever we wants. The point of it is, when it comes to scrutinizing God and religion, it is unsound(yet common) practice for people to present and apply man made terms and conditions in attempts to quantify a problem. Simply put, we do not have all the information to draw accurate conclusions on the matter, let alone accuse God of wrongdoing or inappropriate behavior.

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Why not? God can do anything, so why can't he do this? We're left with the conclusion that god is malevolent: Capable of stopping evil but unwilling to do so.

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This is premature reasoning. Rushing the conclusion that God is malevolent does not make it any more valid . The short answer would be yes! - The better answer would be that we need to take into account all of the implications of removing evil from the system. It is quite obvious that God handles matters on levels which precedes our own understanding.

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Then why doesn't he? If he can but chooses not to, then god is malevolent.

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I believe He has chosen to deal with evil.

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Excuse me? Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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While I cannot speak for others, despite my own inherited sin, I have never betrayed God.

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Ergo, I know what good and evil is. If god can stop evil but chooses not to, then god is malevolent.

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Once again, I believe it is quite clear that God has dealt with evil.

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First, why? Why is it out of our grasp?

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We simply do not have access to that information at this time.

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Second, that isn't what I'm asking. I'm asking if god is capable of preventing evil.
Then why doesn't he? Is he unwilling? If so, then he is malevolent.
Then that would mean god is malevolent.

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Those repeat questions and statements are residual.

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Where does evil come from?

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Evil is not a product. It is a by-product or consequence. Evil is the result of disobedience to God or God's divine laws.No matter how we reformulate things or snatch the term and run. We cannot logically rationalize that God is the source or cause of evil. We do however have evidence which proves otherwise. The same would apply for malevolence. Your entire problem seems to lie in the missuse and treatment of the components of your inquiry.The onset that God does not act according to our own feelings does not qualify him as malevolent. It is quite obvious that we are dealing with individual feelings in contrast to open qualifications. And to this, I would say we are all well within your rights to choose. For the most part, we all accept that there is more to God than we can comprehend. In order to come to a balanced conclusion, it would be necessary that we have the opportunity to examine and evaluate all the implicated data.So the short response could simply be this:
can He do anything he wants? Yes he can!
Does he do anything He wants? No he does not!
Does this qualify God as malevolent?
(Insert opinion here)The good news is(ironically), that we are all free to choose whether or not we want to take a position under God's rule. I myself find this ironic, since the very same attributes which are criticized in this discussion, also prove to set us free.

brennakimi responds to me:

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you keep repeating yourself.

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Because you keep avoiding the direct questions put to you.

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i'm not avoiding answering them, i'm saying they aren't relevant questions.

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Then why are you even bothering to respond? I have made it quite clear that I cannot continue unless you give direct, specific answers to those questions. If you cannot do so for whatever reason, then there is no point in continuing.

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whose claim?

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Are you really that naive?

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and failing to be proactively perfect does not mean being nasty.

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Yes, it does.Don't tell me you're about to engage in black-and-white thinking such that the sole criterion for "nasty" is "kick puppies." That if someone is "nasty," then they must be nasty in every single possible way.

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it would seem that the reason god gives for the people of israel to worship him is that he brought them out of the land of egypt.

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That's not a reason. My parents raised me, but I don't worship them.

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christians worship god because he (at least theoretically) released them from their guilt, not because he's lollipops and sunshine.

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Again, that's not a reason. People get themselves out of guilt all the time without the need of god.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

pbee responds to me:

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However, this does not systematically mean that God does whatever we wants.

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That is not the question. It isn't if he does "whatever" he "wants." It is if he can do anything. There are lots of things that I am capable of doing that I don't do.Which leads us back to the question that has yet to be answered directly:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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The point of it is, when it comes to scrutinizing God and religion, it is unsound(yet common) practice for people to present and apply man made terms and conditions in attempts to quantify a problem.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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Simply put, we do not have all the information to draw accurate conclusions on the matter

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Huh? What more do you need? It's a simple question:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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let alone accuse God of wrongdoing or inappropriate behavior.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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This is premature reasoning.

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What "premature"? You haven't even bothered to answer the question? It's quite simple and requires nothing more than a single word. And yet, you go on and on and on trying to dance around it thinking that will stop me from asking it:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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Rushing the conclusion that God is malevolent does not make it any more valid .

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"Rushing"? How does one "rush" a defintion? By definition, one that can stop evil but does not want to is malevolent.So the question put to you is quite simple and requires not but a single word in response:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.That you don't like the fact that your answer necessarily requires a conclusion of malevolency in god does not change the fact that the answer is there for you to declaim.

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The short answer would be yes!

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Congratulations. You've just agreed that god is malevolent.The only way for you to deny that is for you to retract your answer of yes and switch it to no. So which is it?Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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I believe He has chosen to deal with evil.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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While I cannot speak for others, despite my own inherited sin, I have never betrayed God.

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that doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yes or no.

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Once again, I believe it is quite clear that God has dealt with evil.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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We simply do not have access to that information at this time.

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That doesn't answer the question. Let's try again:Why? Why is it out of our grasp?

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Those repeat questions and statements are residual.

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So answer them and be done with it.Is god capable or incapable? Either/or.
Is god willing or unwilling? Either/or.

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Evil is not a product. It is a by-product or consequence. Evil is the result of disobedience to God or God's divine laws.

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But is god capable of stopping evil? Yes or no.

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We cannot logically rationalize that God is the source or cause of evil.

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Huh? God directly states that he [I][B]IS[/i][/b] the source of evil. Do you really need me to give you the quotations?That said, that isn't the question. It is simply whether or not god is capable and willing to stop evil. If he is capable and willing, then where does evil come from? That isn't a claim that god is causing it. After all, we might conceptualize it as if evil were coming from a fire hydrant. If I have the ability to turn it off and the functioning equipment to do so and very much want to do so, then where is all this water coming from? It isn't coming from ME. It never came from me in the first place. But if I can make it stop and I do, then where did it come from?

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The onset that God does not act according to our own feelings does not qualify him as malevolent.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Yes or no.This has nothing to do with "feelings." It has to do with evil. It doesn't really matter how "evil" is defined. You need to abstract this. Is there such a thing as "evil," however it is defined? Is this "evil" present in the world, however "evil" is defined?Then we're back to the question you refuse to answer:Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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It is quite obvious that we are dealing with individual feelings in contrast to open qualifications.

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Indeed, and you're the one that keeps wanting to introduce your feelings into it. My guess is that that is why you keep refusing to answer the question: You don't like the answer.I have yet to define what "evil" is because that definition is irrelevant. Are you saying that there is no evil in the world? Everything is as precisely as it should be?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Rrhain, I just wanted the one that said: "God can do anything".I knew all those others existed I just thought you had found those exact words somewhere.I wanted the reference so I could use it.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

For you to repent.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Is God capable of stopping evil? YESIs God willing to stop evil? YESIs God willing to stop evil in Rrhain's timeframe? NO

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That's not a reason. My parents raised me, but I don't worship them.
  —Rrhain

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So your parents raising you is equal to God delivering Israel out of 400 years of bondage in Egypt. You must have been a very unrully child, with a lot of problems.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?
  —Rrhain

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I did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you may have.I inherited my sin nature from the man in the garden that disobeyed a direct order from God. Because of his sin and the sin of the arch angel Lucifer, Son of the Morning we have evil in the world. Evil was available to them but they did not have to chose it.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

no, but it's not my claim, yet you're holding me to it. no. but there is a difference in the level of responsibility for someone who actively harms and someone who simply doesn't block someone else's harm. there is a responsibility, but it's not the same. indifference is not malevolence. that's the reason given. if it's not sufficient for you, then that's your call. then i'd imagine those people don't need god. some people do. some people just like god. different strokes.

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Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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The honest approach would be:
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Is god capable of stopping evil?
Is He willing or unwilling?Compounding multiple questions and demanding a singular answer is unsound. The first question is obvious. The second question calls on information we do not have. The entire argument seems to revolve around a need or desire to blame God. However, doing so honestly, would require information beyond the scope of this thread.If we are truly interested in the logistics of whether or not God is to blame, then my advice would be to spawn a new topic dedicated to that very question.It would seem as though God has intervened with evil on numerous occasions. As we covered earlier, evil is not an independent component, treating it as such only derives the objective further off course.

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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Who is we? I didn't eat from the tree? and I don't know of anyone else who has other than Adam and Eve. Additionally, I don't see how this relates to the question.Here is another example of the unsound reasoning applied to the argument.

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The short answer would be yes!
Congratulations. You've just agreed that god is malevolent.
The only way for you to deny that is for you to retract your answer of yes and switch it to no. So which is it?
Is god capable of stopping evil but unwilling? Yes or no.

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Again, rushing past the implications to fulfill ones needs does not add credibility to an argument. First of all, we cannot treat the question with a yes or no answer. The question of whether or not God is willing or not requires a full discloser of the implications. Additionally, it would seem as though the nature of the question has now shifted. Which leads me to believe that we are now being dishonest. If you want to honestly raised the issue on whether or not God is malevolent, then you must present all the charges and be prepared to examine all of the information.

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So answer them and be done with it.

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1. Is god capable or incapable? CAPABLE
2. Is god willing or unwilling? *WILLINGIt would seem as though you began asking the question on whether or not God is willing to remove all evil from the system. In other words, eliminating all capacity to sin. However, under those terms, the topic moves in realm of freedom and balance. In which case the implications change. shouldn't you be asking whether or not God is willing to remove all possibilities of Sin instead? Whatever the case, we don't have the answers. We can only assume based on the information available to us.We do however have the following information:
And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain for the former things are passed away.Since God's name itself means; He Causes to Become, we can be assured that the promise of a life without sin or evil will indeed take place. Considering all things, I would say this is a good as any example that God is willing.

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God directly states that he IS the source of evil. Do you really need me to give you the quotations?

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I may already know what you are referring too, however I would like to see your quotations or sources for this claim nonetheless.

ICANT responds to me:

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Rrhain, I just wanted the one that said: "God can do anything".

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Ah, so you were being disingenuous. Did I or did I not predict just such a reaction?

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I knew all those others existed I just thought you had found those exact words somewhere.

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And you were given it. Did you miss it?Job 42:1: Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that thou canst do every thing and that no thought can be withholden from thee."
42:2: I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.And, in fact, god is called "omnipotent":Revelation 19:6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.Or are you about to be disingenuous again and claim that because the exact statement isn't the specific words, "God can do anything," then there is no statement in the Bible of such?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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So? What is he waiting for?

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For you to repent.

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Then god is unwilling. Ergo, god is malevolent.Thank you for the direct statement.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

ICANT responds to me:

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Is God willing to stop evil? YES

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Is God willing to stop evil in Rrhain's timeframe? NO

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Those two statements contradict each other. God cannot be both willing and unwilling. The evil is here right now. Is god willing to stop it? If he puts restrictions on it, then he is unwilling to do so.Thus, since you have agreed that god is capable but unwilling, then the necessary conclusion is that god is malevolent.Thank you for the direct answer.

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That's not a reason. My parents raised me, but I don't worship them.

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So your parents raising you is equal to God delivering Israel out of 400 years of bondage in Egypt. You must have been a very unrully child, with a lot of problems.

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What does scale have to do with anything? Are you saying that there is something different about helping more than one person compared to only one?Big? Sure. Impressive? Yeah. A reason to worship? Please. Those actions take place every day and we don't worship the people who do them.The UN carried out a global smallpox vaccination process that saved literally billions of people after millenia of the scourge. Smallpox doesn't exist anymore except in a lab.Does that make the UN worthy of worship?

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Did we or did we not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

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I did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you may have.

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Then what's with this "original sin"?You don't get to have it both ways.

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I inherited my sin nature from the man in the garden that disobeyed a direct order from God.

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Which means that you have the same problem: Knowledge gained from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.You don't get to have it both ways. If you aren't tainted by it, then you don't have that knowledge. If you are tainted by it, then you do.

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Because of his sin and the sin of the arch angel Lucifer, Son of the Morning we have evil in the world.

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Um, Satan wasn't in the garden. The serpent was not the devil. The serpent was a beast just like any other only more clever. Genesis directly states so. Hint: How is the serpent punished?Besides, Adam and Eve sinned before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Genesis directly states so. Hint: What is the first reaction Adam and Eve have upon having their eyes opened?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.