ramifications of omnipotence for God

brennakimi responds to me:

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it's not my claim, yet you're holding me to it.

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Because you're participating in the discussion where it is the fundamental premise. If you don't agree with it, if you think the entire premise is flawed, what on earth are you doing participating in the discussion? Why are you bothering?

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Don't tell me you're about to engage in black-and-white thinking such that the sole criterion for "nasty" is "kick puppies." That if someone is "nasty," then they must be nasty in every single possible way.

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no. but there is a difference in the level of responsibility for someone who actively harms and someone who simply doesn't block someone else's harm.

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Then your actual answer is, "Yes." You're doing exactly what I predicted you would: Setting a level for "nasty" on the order of "kicks puppies," and thus if we find that god doesn't kick puppies, then that means god isn't "nasty."You are trying to say that unless god is nasty in every way, at every level, then we cannot apply the descriptive term of "nasty" to god.Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. If god is nasty in any way, then he is nasty. We can recognize that he doesn't kick puppies, but that doesn't detract from him being nasty because that is not the criterion for a determination of "nasty."

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that's the reason given.

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But if it isn't sufficient when we see it in other instances, then it isn't sufficient at all.

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then i'd imagine those people don't need god.

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Which, again, means it isn't a reason.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

pbee responds to me:

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Compounding multiple questions and demanding a singular answer is unsound.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you? Have you lost your short-term memory? I've been asking the questions individually. But the two questions are yes-or-no questions and thus, we can come up with the four possible outcomes:Willing and able: Then whence cometh evil?
Not willing but able: Then god is malevolent.
Willing but not able: Then god is impotent.
Not willing and not able: Then why call him god?It is clear that we are focusing on the result of "not willing but able." That you are trying to obfuscate simply means that you are avoiding the question.Let's try it again, and we'll take it my original way:Is god capable? Yes or no.
Is god willing? Yes or no.Why do you refuse to answer the questions?

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Additionally, I don't see how this relates to the question.

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It goes to the question of whether or not we know what good and evil are. You don't get to have it both ways. Either we are still bothered by that "original sin," and thus do have the knowledge of good and evil, or we aren't and this entire "all are sinners" claim is just a load of crap.But in the end, it is irrelevant for it does not matter beyond the question of "Is there evil in the world"? That's another yes-or-no question and it needs to be answered before we tackle the others. After all, if your answer is "no," then the question of whether or not god is capable/willing to stop evil is moot: There isn't any evil to stop.So, let's try it again:Is there evil in the world? Yes or no.If so, is god capable of stopping it? Yes or no.
Is god willing to stop it? Yes or no.

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First of all, we cannot treat the question with a yes or no answer.

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We most certainly can. Are you saying that there is some sort of "neither capable nor incapable" state that something can be in? Are you saying that there is some sort of "neither willing nor unwilling" state that something can be in?That's the only way out of a yes-or-no question: Show that there is a third alternative.How can something be neither capable nor incapable? Neither willing nor unwilling?

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The question of whether or not God is willing or not requires a full discloser of the implications.

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Irrelevant. We don't need to know what the implications are. We're just asking if he's willing or unwilling. If he has any conditions placed upon his decision to act, then he is unwilling by definition. We don't need to know what those conditions are. It is sufficient merely to recognize that they exist.So is god willing or unwilling?If he is willing (and since you seem to be of the opinion that he is capable), then whence cometh evil?Or are you saying there is no evil in the world?

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1. Is god capable or incapable? CAPABLE
2. Is god willing or unwilling? *WILLING

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Then whence cometh evil? If god can stop it and is willing to do so, why is there evil in the world?Or are you saying there is no evil in the world?Yes or no.

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shouldn't you be asking whether or not God is willing to remove all possibilities of Sin instead?

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No, because if god is capable, then there can certainly be possibilities for sin, they just never actually happen.

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Since God's name itself means; He Causes to Become

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You know what god's name is?

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Considering all things, I would say this is a good as any example that God is willing.

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Then whence cometh evil?Or are you saying there is no evil in the world? Yes or no.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

pbee responds to me:

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I may already know what you are referring too, however I would like to see your quotations or sources for this claim nonetheless.

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Oh, my lord, if you already know it, what's the point of asking? Do you really think I'm not going to have the verses ready? Haven't you been following the thread? I already gave one of the references to ICANT:Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.But there is another:Amos 3:6: Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?There are others, but that should be sufficient, yes?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

So God is waiting for me to repent??So wait...evil won't exit this world and the rapture won't come until I repent?I mean, if God really wanted every soul to be able to hear His word and repent before final judgement, the rapture/end times/what have you would never come unless no more children were born and everyone on earth was given the opportunity.Of course, that depends on how you view "innocents" and their fate, but at the rapture there will surely be someone who was halfway through a sermon that would have converted him or someone who heard the sermon and took 5 minutes to let the "truth" sink in or even someone who was halfway through the acceptance speech for repentance or the 10yo child who was raised to believe in God and Jesus but hadn't yet made the commitment or any one of the people alive that would have lived another 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 years and possibly been "saved".Will God just say, rotten luck, mate, you almost made it, but your heart wasn't as quite as full of the Holy Spirit as I would have liked or you weren't properly evangelized or you were just off the cutoff mark by a few years?

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London

i thought the fundamental premise was that god is omnipotent. the premise we are discussing here is that god is "good". bullshit. some people with adhd don't need medication. does this mean that no one with adhd needs medication because having adhd isn't a reason to be medicated just because some people don't need it?

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Let's try it again, and we'll take it my original way. Is god capable?, Is god willing? Is there evil in the world?, is god capable of stopping it?, Is god willing to stop it?, If god can stop it and is willing to do so?

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Yes to all of the above. We already have evidence that God has dealt with(stopping) it. (see Rev. 21:1,4)

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Why is there evil in the world?

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The Evil(sin) residing in our world today is the direct result of the actions of individual person(s). Namely an Angel now called Satan.

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Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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(Isaiah 45:7) The Meaning of YHWH Bringing Evil.
Rightly, God brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, God referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity would equal the enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, which has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by God are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times God, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. Additionally, in having a warning given, He has undeservedly provided opportunities for those practicing bad to change their course and thus to keep living.Since God himself determines the standard of right and wrong, it behooves the individual to acquaint himself with that standard fully in order to be able to discern what course must be followed. The danger of failing to live up to God’s righteous requirements is clearly seen in what Jesus stated concerning the evil slave. The severest punishment is to be meted out to that slave for his failure to care for the responsibilities entrusted to him and for going even to the point of beating his fellow slaves.

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Amos 3:6: Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

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(Amos 3:6) God's message of judgment against Israel
Israel has been specially favored by God; this results in special accountability When YHWH reveals his purpose to his servants, they prophesy; thus Amos warns that He will hold an accounting for false religious practices at Bethel and defrauding by luxury lovers in Samaria. - Israel has not returned to God despite punishments already meted out; now warned, “Get ready to meet your God”.

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There are others, but that should be sufficient, yes?

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To date, I have not seen anything other than textual misinterpretation. Since it is quite common for people to misinterpret the scriptures, I see no point in raising issue with your own personal position towards God. However, if you are seeking to establish a credible argument then you must be prepared to consider and evaluate all of the implicated data rather that pressing simplified yes and no questions to address your own emotional needs.In breaking things down for the better lack of terms. You're trying to accuse God of malevolence based on blindsided reasoning. If we applied such logic in our legal system, the world would certainly fall in to chaos and despair.The very term Malevolent implies that God wanted or encouraged his creations to do bad. However, we have no evidence to support this claim. In fact we have evidence which points to the opposite, In cases where God urged his creations to do good! Applauding kindness, and exemplifying goodness. All the while, evil was not in the original design of things.In closing, I would say, it is all to easy to blame God for sin and consequence. However, such reasoning is about as sound as blaming the law when one faces incarceration. It just doesn't make much sense.

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So? What is he waiting for?
For you to repent.
So God is waiting for me to repent??

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I don't mean to intrude. and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to the original poster of this conversation. However, I saw this post and although I agree with God wanting repentance from his human creations, I think we may be able to shed a little more light on the question.The bible speaks of "the war of the great day of God the Almighty." - Armageddon, or Har-Magedon. It is a transliteration of the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew expression Har Meghid-dohn' meaning "Mountain of Megiddo" or "Mountain of Assembly of Troops" - God’s war.Armageddon will occur when a certain conditions take hold affecting God's people across the entire earth inhabited.In terror, every man’s hand will be turned against his neighbor in a struggle for survival. They will be no fence sitters in God’s war, and as so often proved scripturally, those generations will not pass away before Armageddon occurs.In summary, it would seem as though God is waiting(hypothetically speaking) for certain conditions to occur. However, claiming that God is waiting around for the great day of judgment is not entirely accurate. Since God the almighty does not wait around for anyone. In fact the framework for Armageddon was cast from a time which precedes our own understanding. All that is required now, is the triggering of the event.Having said this, If one were to ask God, if he had any request prior to that day. I have no doubt repentance would come up in the conversation.

How the heck did it get in there if it wasn't designed in?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Good point! - I could of said sin and not evil(wrongdoing). Since the eating of the fruit was the epidemy of evil. Even though the tree remained in a controlled state. At first glance, it would seem as though they were indeed created along with evil in their perfect state.So this raises the question, how then, can evil be part of the system and not be present in the arrangement?
Evil became the counterbalance of good(good and bad), it provided humans with the absolute freedom over their own destinies.We could compare the original tree of good and bad to an inert substance. However, if combined with another substance, it now becomes lethal thus bringing on death. While the consequences or combination of the two components produce evil, the substance on it's own, remains harmless.Adam and Eve were sinless by origin, and evil was not in their design(or makeup). Evil could only come about if Adam or Eve consciously chose to produce it.As for the tree, it was in itself inert or harmless. The very existence or presence of the tree did not produce evil, nor did it compromise the system. It was not the tree or even the fruit that were evil, but the choosing to disobey God's divine law combined with the physical gesture(eating of the fruit) which sealed the deal.Evil is the by-product of Adam and Eves deliberate acts of disobedience against God's divine laws. Until Adam and Eve sinned against God, there was no evil present. Even when Satan came to tempt Eve, they would have had the absolute power over him. It is even conceivable that they had the authority to destroy him under there own accord, if they so chose. - Shame on them!

You're missing the point with all your apologetic shuckin' and jivin'.I asked a simple question: How did evil get into the system? If it got in in spite of God's wishes, He isn't omnipotent. If it got in because of God's wishes, He's evil. If He just didn't care, He's a waste of time.Is there another option?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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I asked a simple question: How did evil get into the system?

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It was Adam and Eve who brought it into the system.

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If it got in in spite of God's wishes, He isn't omnipotent.

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Nonsense, control over the situation was left entirely in Adam and Eve's hands. God informed them of the consequences and left it up to them. He wasn't sitting on the sidelines pulling the strings. (wishing and hoping)

Nonsense. If God relinquished any control - whether willingly or not - He didn't have "all" control any more. He wasn't omnipotent.You can't just redefine the words to fit your theology. You can't blame Adam and Eve for evil and still have God be omnipotent.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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Nonsense. If God relinquished any control - whether willingly or not - He didn't have "all" control any more. He wasn't omnipotent.

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So under your own standards, you beleive that an entity such as God could not create beings with the absolute freedom to choose between right and wrong and remain omnipotent? That's hardly convincing.

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You can't blame Adam and Eve for evil and still have God be omnipotent.

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Where omnipotent is concerned I have found the following: om·nip·o·tent I understand the statement, however I don't see how these conditions would somehow void God of His absolute power.

It has nothing to do with "my" standards. You can't have "all" power, give some of it away, and still have "all" of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's simple logic. Trouble is, you've got a whole raft of different definitions of "omnipotent" there:

1. almighty
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2. infinite in power
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3. having great authority
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4. having unlimited authority
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5. absolute power

There's a difference between "might" and authority. Which one are you talking about?A lot of ordinary humans have "great authority". Nothing special about that.What you've been talking about certainly isn't "unlimited authority". If God gives us authority - even temporarily - that is a limit on His authority.And it ain't absolute if He gives it away.If you're going to use such slippery definitions, you can come to any conclusion you like.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
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It has nothing to do with "my" standards. You can't have "all" power, give some of it away, and still have "all" of it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's simple logic.

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When it comes down to principles and reason, why would one think that God... creation, and mankind are even relative to physical limitations? Why would we even choose to beleive that God operates on reserves of power which change whenever he creates or accredits abilities to his creations?Simple logic? You have that right!
Sound or rational logic? Absolutely not. You are trying to apply physical conditions bound to our own realm to an entity who clearly is not of this realm. It is completely self indulging and baseless.Then again... these are the results of humans trying to evaluate God. It makes for interesting tea and muffin conversations but remains completely irrelevant in the face of reality.Edited by pbee, : No reason given.