Jesus/God the same?

The current exchanges do seem a bit like a game of musical chairs.

Hi, Yes, God likes to deceive His creation, notice how he loaded the dice in the eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil myth.
Of course nothing is actually hidden, all that happens is that someone comes up with an alternative interpretation and makes some ambiguous claims, it is patently obvious what most of the Bible is saying. I live perfectly well without ‘God’s Word’, in fact my life is a hundred times better now that it ever was when I was foolish enough to think that the Bible had any ‘Truth’ in it. This is simply self-delusion, God is only real if your really really want him to be, the funny thing is, Jesus pops out of existence by applying a little common sense. You cannot search out the truth of a matter if you have set yourself into a stance before looking into it, your pro-God stance has blinded you to reality. I wasn’t warned about this, and I don’t think anyone else here was. But you do know that the Adam and Eve narrative is a folk tale don’t you, I mean the only people who think this actually happened are people who have serious psychological problems. I disagree, this tale is to explain to an ancient people how evil entered the world, it is crystal clear, all you are doing is giving your own spin where none is needed. I think that Jeremiah and Micaiah would disagree with you. ‘God told me that’ is only the first prerequisite for a prophet, the prophet’s words also have to be proven to have come to pass, which is a bit of a bummer when we know that God is happy to tell his prophets lies in order to test his people’s loyalty. Well we know that the vast majority of the Bible has been proven untrue, no big deal really when the authors were ancient spin doctors. Why should I listen to the religious nuts that approach me in the city centre and tell me that YHWH loves us all when I know there is no such thing as a God. Why do these people leave us decent, honest, and caring people alone? The world would be a much safer place without religion. Prophecy is a totally pointless activity, there isn’t a single prophecy in the entire Bible that has been verified to have come true. If you are talking to God Stephen then you really need to go to your doctor and ask them to recommend a good psychiatrist because you are entangled in a web of self-delusion. All that God has ‘said’ to you is exactly what you thought He would say. Why would God prefer to be called by a composite name, why would God have a preference anyway? If God preferred ‘jehovah’ then why did he tell Moses that His name is YWHW? So He didn’t answer your question then, evidently God has as much an understanding of the Trinity myth that you do, doesn’t this tell you that you are having conversations with yourself? And my contribution to this is to ask you again to seek medical help, I say this in all sincerity because your post shows too many ‘text-book’ replies, ‘God’ has revealed nothing to you and you cannot see this.Your post is sodden with too much bog-standard Christianity, and the errors in your posts are so explicit that a child can spot them. Does it not seem a bit strange to you that a Canaanite deity would prefer a man made name as opposed to the name that He gave to Moses?Your hinting at the Trinity is also a teaching that has no place in YWHW worship, the Trinity is totally alien to Judaism and all you are doing is putting words in ‘Gods’ mouth, it is so obvious that you are hearing what you wish to hear during your ‘divine communion’ that I really need to ask you again to seek therapy.Best of Luck.Brian.

Ah, Brian,I'm not sure you want to hear more from a madman, but I liked your comment about your life being 100 times better since you stopped believing that the Bible was true. As I didn't say very well, mine too has vastly improved since I caught on to that fact. A fact which the Bible "admits," in many places.I put "admits" in quotes, because I tend to think that believing in talking books is a bit mad!But then, believing that a God who describes Himself as a person, a loving father, a shepherd, a "mighty counselor, etc, cannot or will not talk to His children, sheep, creation, whatever, now that's truly mad. If He's out there, He can and will talk. He must know how, He must want to, He must have the power to make any of us able to hear, and know His voice. If He cannot or will not talk so we can hear and know that we have been spoken to, I'm not interested. To "believe" in the God self-described in the Bible, and not hear His voice, seems true madness.So, in my effort to maintain my "secularity" I put ole "whatsHisname" to this test. "Until You talk to me so I know (as a professional scientist and scholar) that I am hearing You speak, I will declare it foolish to believe in You." Of course, as a scientist, I attempted to meet the requirements (what we scientists call the materials and methods), that are stated as needed to get the sought after results.And, as you observe, He spoke to me in a way that was utterly persuasive to me that I was hearing someone outside myself talking to me.Now, my life had improved 100 fold, once I got away from the Bible as a guide to living. But, using it as a guide to hearing Jehovah's voice, and getting to hear His voice, I got another 100 fold increase in the quality of life.So, I don't think I am mad. I do appear so to most of the people in this world, but there is good reason to think that almost everyone else is mad. That the default condition of mankind is madness, that only those who hear God's voice can escape into sanity. I certainly was mad, before I heard His voice, if I may judge by the way I bit and tore at those around me, even those I loved, infecting them with misery.But, I have the benefit of being a scientist, and knowing that the true path to truth is to believe, for the sake of testing, ideas that may be important. Then, as tests confirm the ideas, believe them for the sake of living. The strategy, known as dogmatic opinionation, of clinging to an idea until forced by compelling evidence to the contrary, is not very effective. Free will means the freedom to choose death and evil. It's not about persuasion. It's about choice.Maybe that's why you are in these debates.Stephen

Bravo Stephen!It's easy to argue with theory stated as fact, especially when one is not intimately familiar with the branch of science in which the theory is applicable. It's easy to declare madness due to a manifested syndrome that one does not share with the madman, especially when one is not qualified or licensed to diagnose or prescribe.It's gonna be hard to argue with results, especially if the one who has experienced them can back them up with facts.I may not share your vision or your voices, but bravo, Stephen.

Since you admit that your interpretation is in conflict with scripture, and since you refuse to accept those verses preferring your own ideas, there is nothing more to say. I base everything on the Bible, I accept it as the final authority on matters of faith, since you do not and for that matter pretty much reject all things Christian, there isn't any point in continuing this exchange. We are each unchanging in our viewpoints, I am for the Bible, you are against. With such a difference between us, agreement on any issue of faith is impossible.

There is a very easy way to determine if you are really hearing the voice of God or not. If God was speaking to someone, he would never contradict what he has already said in his word the Bible. So all you need to do is to compare what you hear with scripture, any conflicts would disprove God as the source of your messages. In regard to checking this, see post 2 in this thread in which I scripturally disprove the trinity. If my reasoning is correct, and the voice you hear supported the trinity, then it clearly was not the voice of Jehovah.

Wmscott,Whenever God speaks to me, I ask, "Where did You say that in Scripture?" and get a real boost in faith when the Holy Spirit reminds me of something I had read earlier. Or, more rarely, I get led to a verse that confirms. But, of course, the real test of the spirits is to ask the voice to talk about Yeshua walking on this earth in the flesh. Voices that fade away when I ask that, I doubt.But I hear God saying to avoid doubting based on scriptural contradictions. Love, He reminds me, believes all things. For example, He says both to correct a fool in their folly, and to not correct a fool in their folly. So, which is it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If He says correct, do so knowing that this is encouraged in scripture, and ignore the fact that it is contradicted.So, I still believe that God delights in my loving Him, His Son, and His Spirit in different ways, at different times, viewing all as "my Lord and my God." I still believe that I am to use their example of loving one another as I learn to love my brother. (e.g. "You can mess with me, and I will forgive you. But if you mess with my friend, I will never forgive you." following Yeshua's comments about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.) I don't actually use the term "trinity" very often; it's not in scripture, is it?

Hi, hope you are well. I respect and value your responses, I am not trying to insult you or ridicule you. I am concerned about anyone who thinks they hear voices. I never claimed that you are mad, I did imply that you may be suffering from a psychosis, but if you haven’t been checked out by a psychiatrist then it is a possibility. Perhaps your aren’t mad after all As are invisible voices. But He has allegedly talked to dozens of prophets, and the language used to describe Him is used so we can have some idea of his greatness. So why then is it that only certain people hear Him, and normally it is only people who try very hard to convince themselves that He exists. Why bother convincing yourself that He is real, these are ancient myths that you are wasting your life away on. Ok, as a scientist then surely you must explore every possible avenue in an attempt to come to an acceptable conclusion? This said, have you asked a professional to examine your state of mind? John Nash claims the same about a number of entities. This is circular reasoning though. You could be interpreting the Bible to fulfil your preconceptions. So why not get a professional opinion?What would your doctor say to you if you went to him and told him that you believe that you are speaking to God? I bet he wouldn’t send you away with his congratulations ringing in your ears. This reason would be what? Says who? You make up the rules to suit yourself. Just because you were like this doesn’t mean that everyone else is. As a scientist then surely you must know that you could be deluding yourself, it is a possibility. But you are judging yourself if these ideas have been confirmed. Why not put God to the test at the forum here where we can judge independently?Here is a test, the next time you chat to the big fella in the sky, ask him to pop over to Scotland and have a chat with me, I am sure if I come to the forum declaring that God is real that a few people would take a lot of notice. We all die, there is no choice and I believe that the idea of God is evil. It is a bout a threat, follow God or burn in Hell, this is a threat. I am in these debates to try and show people how ludicrous it is to believe in God and the Bible.Best Wishes.Brian.

First thing I would like to point out to you is you stated that "when the Holy Spirit reminds me of something I had read earlier." voices that tell you things you already new are you, probably just your mind feeding things back to you. Nice idea about asking about Jesus walking the earth, you may also want to use Jehovah's name as well, but beware of what happened at Acts 19:15. and follow the advice in verse 18 and you may not have that problem.There are no scriptural contradictions only wrong interpretations, just think about it, why would the writers of the later books write things that contradicted the earlier books? Why would those who organized the books of the Bible include books that contradicted the other books? Clearly they wouldn't have, in determining whether or not a Book was part of God's inspired Word, any such contradictions would have resulted in the material being rejected as being part of the Bible. Which is why it is foolish to claim that there are contradictions in the Bible. It is only fairly recently in history that these supposed contradictions have been found, they were unknown in earlier times. The reason for this is simple, first some people just don't want to believe and second enough time has passed that many are no longer familiar with the context in which the material is set that the writers took for granted that the readers would know. Another major source of supposed contradictions is false doctrines which make it appear that things are in conflict when in reality the only thing that is wrong is doctrine itself which is not based on scripture. If you still have problems with specific verses, cite them and I will see if I can find the answers for you. But as I was saying the trinity is non biblical and any voice you hear supporting is not from God.

Mr. Scott says, in part, "Why would those who organized the books of the Bible include books that contradicted the other books? Clearly they wouldn't have, in determining whether or not a Book was part of God's inspired Word, any such contradictions would have resulted in the material being rejected as being part of the Bible."The process of canonizing the various books was a long, drawn-out process that appears to have begun in Ezra's time, when the "24 revealed books" were made available to the common man, and the "70 revealed books" reserved only for the wise (14:26,45). The process continued through Rabbinic times and into the Diaspora with much arguing regarding the "inspired" nature of the works after the first five books constituting Torah. You should particularly be aware of this fact since the Saducees acknowledged the five books of Moses (Torah) and only those books, and canonized none other, while the Pharisees hung their kippahs on "the Law and the Prophets." This is clearly portrayed in the "Gospels." Get a grip on the history of your own branch of Judaism -- Christianity, man.As for only "inspired" books making it through the canonization process, I offer up the Book of Esther, which by the way remained controversial for many generations after its initial canonization. The Book of Esther is not the inspired word of God, in fact, I don't believe the word "God" ever appears in the Hebrew version of the book, a distinction shared by no other book in either "testament."Mr. Scott, you say further that, "it is only fairly recently in history that these supposed contradictions have been found, they were unknown in earlier times."Again, this is totally wrong. What the heck do you think caused all the controversy between the basic divisions of the Jewish religion: Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Christians, and Rabbinicals? And then take the Christians themselves -- why do the Coptics, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant divisions canonize different books and exclude certain books from their separate canonized library?I'm not going to drag this out, Scott, but you should seriously do some research regarding whether there has been and continues to be very serious, very detailed, and very scholarly examination of the content (yes including contradictory content as well) of individual books that some very powerful sectarian and secular voices still say should be included or excluded from "the Bible." Sheesh!Hey, just to get you started: Reed, "Apocrypha, 'Outside Books,' and Pseudepigrapha," PSCO 2002Peace.[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 12-29-2003]

Hey, Brian,I haven't learned to do the neat box thing, but anyway, you said,"So why then is it that only certain people hear Him, and normally it is only people who try very hard to convince themselves that He exists"Now, there are two answers to this question, one that satisfies me and one that satisfies you. The answer that satisfies me accepts as given the Orthodox Theology hypothesis, and satisfies me only because it demonstrates that certain data are expected, given the hypothesis is true. This answer is that, being born in sin, that is as slaves of Satan, who wants to keep us slaves, all humans are immediately upon conception blinded and made deaf, so that they cannot hear God telling them how to escape slavery. Unless someone prays (so the OT hypothesis goes), the person cannot hear or see. They normally are given some idea that there might be a God, and that if they pray themselves, they might be made able to hear. The "trying very hard to convince" yourself, of course, strengthens prayers, almost always going along with the self-convincing. Aren't you more likely to go out of your way to speak to and help someone, who is making every effort to get a response from you?Now, on to an answer that might satisfy you.Only by trying hard to convince oneself can one overcome the tendency to self-delusion that filters out God's voice? Ah, well! Not very persuasive, but consistent with your belief that we are all very prone to self-delusion. (Surely you wouldn't suggest that listeners were vulnerable, but that skeptics were not?) But, as a scientist, wouldn't it be profitable for you to delude yourself into hearing God speak, so you could effectively study the weirdness. Then, of course, you would undelude yourself, to get back to reality....?Anyway, onward...."Why bother convincing yourself that He is real, these are ancient myths that you are wasting your life away on."If I convince myself that He is real (for me, a highly ephermeral state!), but in that effort win Him to convince me that He is real, then, if He is real, I'm ahead of the game. I've talked myself into lots of things, and some paid off. I became a scientist so that I could do actual tests of reality, that did not depend on what I believed, or whether I had convinced myself or anything. In fact, I became a hypothetico-deductive scientist, which meant that I had to develop the skill to convince myself of all sorts of nonsense, so that I could more easily deduce predictions from the ideas. I didn't know they were nonsense, of course, until after I had tested their predictions, and found them wanting. But, I convinced myself, sort of, that it was God speaking to me, stepped out on the premise, and won all sorts of prizes."Ok, as a scientist then surely you must explore every possible avenue in an attempt to come to an acceptable conclusion? This said, have you asked a professional to examine your state of mind"Well, every possible avenue is a lot of avenues. And, since the journey is the goal, I'm not really after conclusions, just ideas worth betting my life on. As to professionals, I am afraid that I have yet to meet one that meets my standards as a trustworthy authority. Bad fruit."This reason would be what?" (referring to my suggestion that the whole world is mad, except for those hearing God's voice.)First, we ask, "What is the prior plausibility that dark matter on earth is inhabited by beings that parasitize humans, infecting their minds and inciting them to do evil and be mad?"Then we ask, "If this idea is true, what predictions can we make from it that are otherwise rather implausible?"Then we ask, "Has anyone reported on researching such predictions, and verified them?"And finally, "What alternative explanation/hypothesis do we have for madness and evil, and how has it been confirmed?"We, of course, turn away from the unscientific "Yes, but..." subjective arguments that distract from each step. We are hard-assed scientists, and want to know what the data say, free from skeptical rationalizations and whining objections. You don't agree, replicate. Invite the orginal authors into your lab, or go to theirs. The scientific literature is replete with experiments confirming the OT hypothesis, at all sorts of levels: Bible Code studies, near-death studies on Hell, weighing of souls, studies on prayer. Oh, sure, all have been "discredited" by skeptics. Like the studies on limes and scurvy were discredited, like Semmelweis's study on antisepsis were discredited, like Pauling's studies on vitamin C were discredited. Skeptics! Scum of the earth, in my opinion. And I'm sure the 100,000 sailors who died unnecessarily from scurvy because of the lime research skeptics, the 10,000 mothers and their babies who died unnecessarily from childbirth fever, delivered by unwashed physicians, the millions who have died unnecessarily from cardiovascular disease (not to mention pneumonia, addictions, and a host of other problems), deprived by vitamin C skeptics, all these also despise the vile talk a lot, replicate nothing skeptics who cost them so much.It's a good thing I find it likely that "the devil made them do it" ." Here is a test, the next time you chat to the big fella in the sky, ask him to pop over to Scotland and have a chat with me, I am sure if I come to the forum declaring that God is real that a few people would take a lot of notice."I pray:
Father, remember that your Son, Yeshua, paid a great price so that Brain might be forgiven everything offensive he's ever done. Look on Him as you did when you made Him, with all the hope you had then of glorious and wondrous things from him. Hear his openness to know you, to consider again choosing the life you created Him for. Don't let the devil continue to gloat over his robbery of this life from your glory. Give him hearing ears, and say something he can stand to hear, in a voice he will know is yours. He has some friends he wants to take notice. Give him, and Scotland, a break.So it shall be."I am in these debates to try and show people how ludicrous it is to believe in God and the Bible."A tried and true way to get God's attention!This is good.Stephen{Note from Adminnemooseus: or Just look at this in the edit mode, to see how it's done. You can look at anyones message in the edit mode, although you can only actually edit your own messages - AM}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-30-2003]

Hey, Brian,Last night, the Big Guy woke me up to talk about you. Said that I needed to pass on to you two thoughts:First, the epidemic madness of the human race is manifested in the many self-destructive behaviors that we have actually institutionalized into our culture. Desmond Morris, in his The Human Zoo, observed that humans, as primates, behave as weirdly as caged primates. As madly, I would say. We educate our young people in schools, for example, in spite of abundant evidence that this is a poor method, that almost does more harm than good. We set up a mating system that is almost designed to produce neurosis, making young people at the peak of their organic reproductive potential exercize restraint and wisdom that most more experienced and supposedly wiser adults cannot handle. We force monogamy on a species, clearly adapted to polygamy, asking females who are probably internally designed to select and live with males that have proved their fitness by their ability to attract many females, to live with males apparently unable to evidence such fitness. We create an economic system that breaks with common sense notions of biologic fitness, getting most humans to spend most of their time doing stuff that has no connection to biologic fitness. Denial is epidemic. We befuddle our supposedly sapienistic minds with slang, and baffling art and music. Self-destructive behaviors are epidemic. We surround ourselves with good nutrition, then proceed to eat crap.As a biologist, looking at the human species, I look at each subculture, and look at its biologic fitness, the likelihood that it will be represented in the future. Mennonites, for example, have the most children, that inherit their parents' culture (9-10 per family, 90% of which stay in the culture). The Swiss, as a more k-selected culture, also appear to have a certain staying power. But, both of these are glaringly exceptional to the species as a whole, which, to my naturalistic eye, appears infected with some sort of mad-human disease, causing it to behave in self-destructive ways, fulfilling the agenda of some other agent which seems to have infected them.The other thing He told me to pass on to you is this. In His eyes, as our creator, there is something worse than an eternity in Hell. That is the loss of our freedom to choose between heaven and hell. As He talks to you (and He will, He said), you will have to choose, love or hate, belief or doubt, truth or denial of truth. The pleasures and pains of living, or the pleasures and pains of self-righteousness. Living is a world of humbly thinking, "maybe that's Him speaking. I better look into it." Self-righteousness, a world of arrogantly closing your mind with "I know that that's impossible" or "I know for sure that that was .... whatever."Be careful what you choose, for Scotland's sake. You are there for a purpose, and if you choose unwisely, you won't be the only one, nor even the first, to suffer the consequences. Maybe that's a threat, maybe a warning. There's another choice for you. Personally, I hope you were hungering for and hear in it affirmation that who you are and how you choose, makes a lot of difference in this world, because you were created, not evolved.[This message has been edited by Stephen ben Yeshua, 12-30-2003]

Here's a quick-and-dirty lesson. Type this:[qs]Quoted text goes in here[/qs]To make this: You can also attribute the quote to the person like so:[qs=Joe Momma]Quoted text goes in here[/qs]To make this: Anyway, on to your post... That's kinda funny because just the other night I was talking to the the Big Guy and He said to me that the negativities described in your post are primarily the result of dogmas set up to fence in the natural inclinations and abilities of the individual -- many of them most horrendously propogated by those that interpret their negative results as evidence that humans need those very same restrictions and limitations. Yeah... its called "religious fundamentalism"... at least that's what the Big Guy told me... And how will you respond to my claims of having communicated with the Big Guy? By my description of its content, will you claim "I know that's impossible"? Will you insist that "I know for sure that that was (the devil/a demon/you talking to yourself/etc.)"?[This message has been edited by ::, 12-30-2003]

:ae:,Thanks for the tip about boxing in quotes.Now, about your talking with Jehovah, telling us what you heard, and wondering how I respond,Well, since you heard pretty much what I heard, my response is, thank you for talking with God, and telling us what you heard. Put our messages together, and we get, "Religious fundamentalism is the primary door by which humans get mad-human disease from the devil." When I ask God about that, He says, "You guys are getting there. Keep coming back."Of course, religious fundamentalist's infections include a misrepresentation of demonic "natural" history. We'll only get an accurate picture of what we are dealing with, if we get that picture while keeping to the best we know of applied epistemology.

I wasn't referring to the canonizing of biblical books, I was referring to that fact that books that contradicted earlier accepted material, would never have been made part of scripture. As for the process of how scripture became scripture, the Bible was written over a very long period time so of course the canonizing was also spread out over a long period of time as well. There has never been any real question as to what is part of the Bible and what is not, it is not an issue. Even Catholic scholars recognize the apocryphal books as being apocryphal. The 66 books that make up the Bible are well known. The differing views of some religious groups on what is inspired have no standing and are based on tradition or other mistaken views and are not supported outside of those religious groups. Like only Mormons think that the Book of Mormon is inspired.My point was that it is foolish it expect to find biblical contradictions, any such would have never been included in the first place. Obviously those who find such 'contradictions' don't understand the context. All of the supposed contradictions disappear once you understand the background and what the writers were talking about. Those who think they have found such, only highlight their biblical ignorance, they have the foolish pride to think that everyone else missed what they have found. Like nobody in thousands of years but them has ever examined the Bible? It never occurs to them that many others have read the same and understand the context and see no conflict. The reason of course is simple, they are not looking for answers they are looking for excuses. Having read on some of the 'contradictions' I find them to be based on such simple misunderstandings that it was obvious that they didn't understand the first thing about the Bible. I doubt that they even knew what the theme of the Bible is. Atheists don't know the Bible, or else they wouldn't be atheists. Atheism the belief that there is no god, is the most fragile of all belief systems, it is like a perfect vacuum inside a hollow glass sphere. The slightest tap of a supernatural act and the whole thing implodes beyond any repair. The extremeness of atheism is demonstrated by the simple fact that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, which means that even if there was no evidence for the existence of God at all, there still wouldn't be any evidence for atheism. Like many belief systems atheism finds it's real support in emotion rather than reason.

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The Book of Esther is not the inspired word of God, in fact, I don't believe the word "God" ever appears in the Hebrew version of the book,

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Not directly, in the Hebrew text there are four places where there is an acrostic of the Tetragrammaton YHWH or in other words, Jehovah God. (The initials are marked in the Masora by red letters.) At Esther 7:5 there is also an acrostic of God's statement "I shall prove to be".