The New Neo-Nazi's

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Please, develop some maturity and stop hoping that crying "racism" and "hate" will shut people up
______________________________________________________________________Funny way to disagree. You are actually defending a country bumpkin accusation that christianity caused the Holocaust, which is actually a hate-based construct perpetrated by CERTAIN Jewish historians. This inflammatory religious rhetoric is intended as retaliation for christians blaming Jewry for murdering Jesus.The Church COULD OF stopped Hitler, but they conned themselves to believe that Sermon on the Mount principles would work on a tyrant.Zephyr quote:
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You have, without substantiation, argued that education is the reason for Nazism and that anyone who attempts to educate themselves and maintain a balanced perspective on one particular issue (Israel/Palestine) is in effect a Nazi. Pardon my saying so, but you don't have a leg to stand on
______________________________________________________________________Nope. I have argued that the highly educated (Nazi's) committed the worst sin/Holocaust, therefore anyone who wants to claim that education is the cure for evil/sin does not have a leg to stand on.If a "balanced perspective" includes whitewashing the murdercide of Jews, then this is a generous euphemism specially crafted to accomodate the ultra-educated. No attempt would be made to include skinhead violence in this category.Nobody can argue against a balanced perspective per se, and persons who play umpire in the Middle East conflict are not Nazi's, I am indicting a specific type of person (university professors) who would never see themselves as a "Nazi" to be just that when they justify the murder of Jews. My comparison is accurate: The ultra-educated committed the Holocaust and today the ultra-educated still justify the murder of Jews.They need to condemn suicide bombings without qualification - period.Zephyr quote:
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You can't simply handwave the words of Hitler himself with emotional rhetoric while foot-stomping your original (refuted) generalization.
______________________________________________________________________Those words of Hitler said nothing about christianity. Like I said, Hitler/Nazi's used deistic patronage to justify the unjustifiable.

Very good point.

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To equate those with knowledge though with Nazis is simply silly. Not foolish, not childish, but silly.And you keep going back to Nazi Germany being the most Educated Nation in History at that Time. That is simply hogwash. Worse it is hogwash without even an effort to support such assertions.
______________________________________________________________________I have equated the highly educated to be doing the same thing as the highly educated did in Nazi Germany: Rationalizing and justifying the murder of Jews.Only an ignorant person would deny that Nazi Germany was the most educated nation in history up until that point.My ultimate conclusions seem to really bother you. Why protect university elites ? They be the real intelligencia source of anti semitism.

Willowtree. So being as you have evidence to back up this statement you will give us a breakdown of the logic you used correct?

WTYou continue to avoid answering any of the questions raised.You make totally unfounded and unsupported statements and when others refute what you say with supported comments, you rant on.You say Well perhaps. I may well be ignorant and so I have room to learn. What leads you to believe that Germany was the most educated nation in history up until that point?You also say, yet again, provide no support other than your opinion.I think a few people might begin to take you seriously if in any one of the many posts you had offered even one shred of evidence.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Tell me who was more educated ?The Nazi's almost conquered the world and they did it with brains.I am making a valid point, it is debateable, and it is true at the same time. Have you read any bios of the Nazi's ? All of them had impressive educational credentials.If you want to argue about the reality of oxygen then go somewhere else. If my argument stands or falls on this precise issue then you lose easily.

What I am doing is cutting to the chase. My answer is, even nominally educated persons know that Nazi Germany was highly educated. If you want to say due to absence of "evidence" that this is an unsupported assertion then I agree, that technically you are correct. Are you happy ?If you are unaware of current events that contain quotes of university elites whitewashing Palestinian murdercide then, once again, comfort yourself with the above admission and move on. Quasi political/historical arguments require rapid fire point/counterpoint exchanges. Assumptions are made by persons already knowledgeable in the specific issue being debated/discussed. Persons like you I will just "concede" the point by technicality and comfort myself that you had to resort to a technicality to win instead of on merit.

WTYou sound like a nice young kid. But you really need to do some more history research.Almost all of the major European Nations were certainly as well educated and at least as intellegent as the Germans during that period.And yes I know that many University Faculty make absolutely stupid comments. But in particular, the events of Palestine are neither new or religious in nature. It is a struggle for power and land. It has been going on since WWI. At the time of partition, there were approximately 800,00 Muslims, about 60,00 Jews and a slightly smaller number of Christians in the area that was called the Palestine Mandate.I asked you earlier if you were familar with a photo. As a history student, it would be good for you to become familar with that photo and with the events that surrounded it before we go much further.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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You are actually defending a country bumpkin accusation that christianity caused the Holocaust,

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Absolutely untrue. Your reading comprehension is abysmal. I hope you don't have any standardized tests in the near future.

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....which is actually a hate-based construct perpetrated by CERTAIN Jewish historians. This inflammatory religious rhetoric is intended as retaliation for christians blaming Jewry for murdering Jesus.

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Substantiate please?Incidentally, "hate" is a verb, not a noun.

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The Church COULD OF stopped Hitler, but they conned themselves to believe that Sermon on the Mount principles would work on a tyrant.

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I think you meant "could have." Again, please substantiate this claim. It took six years, the combined efforts of many nations and the expenditure of millions of lives to defeat Hitler. But you think The Church could have done it?

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Nope. I have argued that the highly educated (Nazi's) committed the worst sin/Holocaust, therefore anyone who wants to claim that education is the cure for evil/sin does not have a leg to stand on.

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What a waste of an argument. If that is all you are really arguing, that the statement you describe is unfounded, this thread is way off track already and most of the points in the OP (hell, all the posts) were irrelevant. Tangentially, you still haven't shown the Nazi politicians were more educated than anyone else.

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If a "balanced perspective" includes whitewashing the murdercide of Jews

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This has been pointed out, but "murdercide" is not a real word. It's hard to take your points seriously when you fail to use the English language properly in making them.

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The ultra-educated committed the Holocaust and today the ultra-educated still justify the murder of Jews.

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LOL! Tell us about the Nuremberg defendants' academic credentials if you want anyone to listen. Your argument is empty until you can do that! Then you'd have to show that anyone other than a small minority of today's academic world actually justifies the murder of Jews while condemning all other murder. Then you would have to show that this has any relevance when the actual killing - which is a quantum leap above simply excusing killing - is being done by uneducated, ignorant religious zealots at the bidding of other uneducated, ignorant religious zealots. You have no clue how far off track you are, because only one of those three is within your grasp, and without them all your entire premise is dead.[This message has been edited by zephyr, 04-28-2004]

I think it was actually Austria that would be regarded as the highest educated at that time, at least in terms of literacy and education level. It's been a long time since I've seen this documented but I believe it is correct. Therefore you have a point, such that it is. The difference in Austria and Germany (notwithstanding the fact that Germany had a larger underclass) at that time was negligible. It'd almost be like the difference in North and South Dakota.However, you're essential argument seems to be that a high level of education does not correspond to a high level of morality. I wouldn't argue with that at all, but I don't see how it matters. A higher level of knowledge can definitely improve society and the quality of life, but I've never known anyone who would say that it should raise societal mores.In other words, you're right in that education level has nothing to do with morality. Why is this point so important to you?

Fair enough, Mike. Good answers to the parts you quoted, but I wish you'd try to take the whole thing in at once. The point was that if you can absorb the entire perspective I'm trying to offer, then your take on the individual pieces will be different than if you just pick out the ones you understand or find interesting (I'm not sure what your criteria are) and deal with those separately.I'm not gonna go off about the True Scotsman thing, because it's been beaten to death. It doesn't really matter, because nobody will ever agree who is a true Christian. For the moment, let us agree that you understand (and I accept your interpretation of) half of this picture. On that side, we have a contrast between following Jesus and slaughtering people under a banner of Christianity. But you must understand the whole for my point to have any meaning. If you don't know or care what the difference is between studying evolutionary science and forming a genocidal, eugenics-fueled nationalist movement, then we can just stop right here, because it is effectively the same as the difference between trying to live like Jesus and carrying on a tradition of anti-Semitism in the name of a state church that happens to bear his name. Thus, if you lack the knowledge or the interest to build BOTH of those parallel concepts in your head and understand the analogy between the two, we're wasting our time by trading posts here....

Willow, I strongly disagree with this statement.The military success of the Third Reich was due almost entirely due to the military, rather than Nazi pseudo politico-military musings. The real "brains" were generals like Guderian, Manstein, Rommel et al, in the formulation & effective practice of a new weapon, the Panzerwaffe, to unleash a new kind of war; blitzkrieg. The as yet unheard of combined arms tactics, & the weapons they used was entirely due to the military establishment thinking out of the box, attempting to provide solutions to the trench warfare tactics that had strangled them in the Great War.In a very real sense it was the Nazi's that lost the war, not the Wehrmacht. In the expansive phase of the war the Wehrmacht achieved only parity of numbers, & in many cases was outnumbered in critical areas such as tanks, aircraft, & infantry. They prevailed because of good military planning & the surprise achieved because of their new forged weapon. It took massive superiority in numbers to drive them back. In every case I can think of where the Germans were defeated, the Nazi leadership exercised a political rationale on what should have been decisions being based purely on military considerations. Had Hitler not intervened the Wehrmacht would not have been trapped at Stalingrad, the Crimea, The Kurland, etc. They would not have forced themselves into a fortress mentality, & subsequently lost vast numbers of troops through Hitlers sheer bloody mindedness. The German Army lost more men in Army Group Center's defence in the summer of '44 than at Stalingrad because of this.Given the initial condition where the Germans attacked the Soviet Union, they were capable of winning, or at the very least of stalling the front indefinately. A fact that is often forgotten is that Germany had a greater industrial base than Russia, but because of political considerations they refused to mobilise it until it was too late.Most obviously, the decision to attack Russia in the first place was Hitlers, most historians agree this was not a "brainy" move. The decision to declare war on the US was Hitlers, the only single nation with a larger industrial base than Germany; not good. The Nazi leaderships mistakes & miscalculations are well documented & legion, the credit for the Third Reichs successes (apart from the territorial gains prior to Sept '39) entirely belongs to the military & not the political "brains".The Nazis were thugs in uniform. What passed for their intelligence was suppressed by their arrogant superiority & unwarranted, anti-intellectual race hatred.Even if we ignore the above, your point that Nazis intelligence is related to the Third Reich's initial succes is further tarnished by the fact that in the end they lost the bloody thing! As I point out, the Nazis actions in WWII are more indicative of crass stupidity than a high level of intelligence.Mark[This message has been edited by mark24, 04-28-2004]

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"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

You are very "articulate" (Is that the word?).Ofcourse, I can see the difference. Many infact most here, are studying evolution and they seek not to kill Jews. I don't agree with "that" part of WT's post and so I chose to only answer to the christian parts of your post - being the nitpicker I am.Whether intelligence has any baring on "murder" I don't know. Many serial killers are touted as being intelligent - very intelligent. And many psychopath killers are touted as very cunning. (Mainly on the discovery channel ). So, I guess education/intelligence does have no effect on morals, but I am still a bit unsure.I think we could agree to agree, that those two statements you made about the nazis are probably accurate.
Regards, Mike.

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You are very "articulate" (Is that the word?).

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Yes, and thanks

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Ofcourse, I can see the difference. Many infact most here, are studying evolution and they seek not to kill Jews. I don't agree with "that" part of WT's post and so I chose to only answer to the christian parts of your post - being the nitpicker I am.

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Cool, I was just asking. Wasn't sure if you were avoiding or just saying "no-comment" on the rest. Please don't think I was insulting your intelligence.

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Whether intelligence has any baring on "murder" I don't know. Many serial killers are touted as being intelligent - very intelligent. And many psychopath killers are touted as very cunning. (Mainly on the discovery channel ). So, I guess education/intelligence does have no effect on morals, but I am still a bit unsure.

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Well, intelligence may help them avoid capture long enough to become serial killers instead of one-time killers... education, probably not. Unless you're talking about education in the field of forensics and such, which is highly specialized and unlikely to affect morals. I can't imagine either of those things turning a loving and well-mannered person into a psychopath.

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I think we could agree to agree, that those two statements you made about the nazis are probably accurate.
Regards, Mike.

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Awww, come over here and give me a hug!

AArgh dee cutchy wutchy icle Zephyr babwa I Know - I see your point. A psychopath is probably born psycho I think, but I won't open that can of worms here.... My explanation is "If the fruit is good, then it is very good, and if it is bad - then indeed it is very bad". You won't find that scripture because the wording is almost certainly not accurate, yet the meaning is the same